Running out of Runway at Kunsan RWY 36
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I’ve been practicing IFR landings at Kunsan RWY 36. Here are pictures at the end of my landing.
At the end of the RWY, my range indicator shows 1 mile to go and I still did not come to a complete stop. Does this mean I should expect to touch down at 2 miles?
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I should expect to touch down at 2 miles?
We do not care about the distance at touchdown. There are minimums where you have to get the visual of the runway and proceed to a visual landing. If no visual => Go around then missed approach procedure.
The ILS/DME/TACAN is not positioned right on the runway. Look at real airport charts. IIRC, in BMS (4.32), the beacon is in the center of the airport.
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It says that the TCN beacon is about 1 mile to your 3 to 4 oclock position. That is expected…
If you keep going forwards it wont go down to 0, it will increase to 2 again as you are getting further from the beacon.
You should expect to touch down in the TouchDown Zone. When you say you are practicing IFR landings, you are acquiring the runway visually before landing, right?
EDIT: Sniped!!!
As DeeJay said, if you are current on instrument approaches then you still need to get the airport visual before 210’ AMSL (200’ AGL).
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I think the 1 mile on your HSI is the distance to the TACAN station. According to your HSI the TACAN station is right 3 o’clock (white arrow). It could be possible that you have a 1 mile distance to the tacan station.
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quote from the dash 1
ILS/TCN: This mode is one of the two modes to be used when needing the
ILS needles. It activates the ILS symbology in the HUD, the ADI and the
HSI. The course deviation indicator on the HSI gives the localizer deviation.
The TO/FROM indicator is not displayed and the bearing pointer points at
the active TACAN station. The range value in the DME window of the HSI is
from the active TACAN station. -
I think the 1 mile on your HSI is the distance to the TACAN station. According to your HSI the TACAN station is right 3 o’clock (white arrow). It could be possible that you have a 1 mile distance to the tacan station.
Yes, this is it. TACAN station is at airbase center and not on runway centerline. Also showing “1” in the window means somewhere between 0 and 2 nm.
Category I ILS in an F-16 transitions to visual reference no later than 200’ AAL. Touchdown should be nearly indistinguishable from a fully VFR approach and landing, maybe a little longer if you just get visual at MAP. If your landings after a visual approach look substantially different than landings after an ILS approach, something is wrong in procedure.
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Also showing “1” in the window means somewhere between 0 and 2 nm.
In BMS, based on shared mem content viewed trough Lightning MFDE EHSI, it’s actually between 1.0 & 1.99.
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showing “1” in the window means somewhere between 0 and 2 nm.
In BMS, based on shared mem content viewed trough Lightning MFDE EHSI, it’s actually between 1.0 & 1.99.
Well technically he is not wrong…
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the interesting point to note is that the shared mem gives the distance two digit past decimal
which the 3D pit HSI doesn’t -
@Red:
the interesting point to note is that the shared mem gives the distance two digit past decimal
Yes. That was nice to see when I switched from HSI to EHSI
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Also showing “1” in the window means somewhere between 0 and 2 nm.
That is wrong mate.
When we have at HSI 1 DME for mileage in BMS (default - Not via shared mem or something else), means that actually we are on a distance from the specific station (TACAN or NAV fix - depended from the position of the Instr Mode) at 0.5-1.4 NM (0.5 NM is 31/61).
With the same method if we have 2 DME, means we are at 1.5-2.4 NM and so on… ;).
Nikos. -
@jc1:
I’ve been practicing IFR landings at Kunsan RWY 36. Here are pictures at the end of my landing.
At the end of the RWY, my range indicator shows 1 mile to go and I still did not come to a complete stop. Does this mean I should expect to touch down at 2 miles?
If you fly the approach properly (not accounting for minima, etc.) you should touch down on the threshold as normal. Vid below, although half-arsed and done on a ‘bet’, proves the point. What you are seeing is what’s already been described …. the TACAN station is about 1nm inland from the runway.
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Just for the educational part of the discussion considering all the newbies who are reading us this demonstration is not good (real life speaking).
The approach should have been, aborted at 7:00 or even earlier because approach is not stabilized and not withing ILS precision requirements. No glide validation, never on glide during the final approach … etc … and you must not stay head down until touchdown (furthermore because in 4.32, ILS’s glide beam is not guiding you to the right area (ILS touchdown zone of the runway).But Agave_Blue, no need to explain or justify anything, I’ve well understood that it was just for challenge not made as tutorial … so please forgive my remark … I am sure you will understand why my comment above Regards.
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Absolutely correct Dee-Jay …. just for fun … much wrong with this from a ‘tutorial’ stand point.
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@Red:
quote from the dash 1
Well, all the time I was thinking that because Kunsan had a ILS beam and a Tacan beam (some airports don’t have ILS or TACAN), that the Range indicator gave me the range to the ILS localizer beam when I’m in ILS/Tacan mode, and that the range indicator gave me the range to the Tacan when I’m in Tacan mode. Thanks for clearing out my misconception that there is a range indicator for the ILS localizer beam. I now get it that there is no such thing as a localizer range in my Falcon for any airport. There is the range to the Tacan in ILS/Tacan mode, range to the steerpoint in ILS/Nav mode, and a CDI needle in both the ADI and HSI when in ILS/TACAN or ILS/Nav representing deviation from the localizer beam. And a CDI needle in the HSI, not the ADI, representing the deviation from the Tacan when in Tacan mode and representing the deviation from the steerpoint when in Nav mode.
Thanks to all the other guys who emphasized that I should get visual at decision height. I knew that but at the same time I was thinking that since I had a mile to go in ILS/TACAN mode and I’m getting good at this:wfish:, I wouldn’t look up until the range indicator was zero at decision height. And then I always wondered why I ran out of runway. NO MORE:p. Thanks again to all of you. -
Enjoy your trainings with this fabulous simulator!
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Normal, basic, and original ILS doesn’t include native DME (half the reason for the markers). There are real life ILS-DME setups where you can tune in (in some airplanes) the DME associated with the ILS and not the general VOR-TACAN type station. It’s a sort of upgrade for precision in distance to TDZ.
F-16 only has one DME receiver and it’s slaved to TCN selection but I think you could cheat and tune the TCN system to the channel which happens to have the desired DME frequency if it exists and you know it. If there was a DME shack in the middle of the desert and you wanted to tune it in you would set the TCN system to the channel which is naturally paired with that frequency. You wouldn’t get pointer data but you would get distance. Fun enough it’s also possible to express localizer and glidescope frequency pairs as “22Y” style channels. VORTAC KUN is 112.80 Mhz (aka 75X) and I-KZZ (I made that identifier up) would be 40X (110.30 LOC, 332.30 GS). I’m sure the avionics designers saw the idea of being on 75X for TACAN and 40X for ILS was a recipe for disaster as pilots are confused so easily. Consequently we dial in megahertz like cavemen for the ILS part of the system.
So in pure theory if there was a dedicated (T)DME for the ILS system (reading exactly 0 at the TDZ) in addition to a TACAN station one could switch DME references by changing the TCN system tuning even if that alternate DME source was DME-only. For Kunsan the localizer is 110.3 so the DME would be on 1064 & 1001 Mhz which is channel 40X. Tuning the TCN equipment to 40X you should get the DME associated with the ILS (if it existed in BMS, which it doesn’t).
The Docs folder approach plates are a little wrong in the sense that they say “DME 6” when they should say “KUZ 6” because all DME notes on the chart should identify the origin station along with the distance. It’s entirely possible for a chart to mix DME reference origins in the same approach. Also the localizer identifier wouldn’t be “KUZ” or even “I-KUZ” because that’s already taken (or too similar) to the VORTAC identifier which is “KUZ” in real life. Not that we get to hear any Morse identifiers at all anyway. Add to this that DME looks inescapably necessary for this approach so it should be an ILS/DME approach and not an ILS one.