Ramp start?
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I tried the ramp start again. I get to where the JFS switch automatically toggles off. As soon as that happens the RPMs go to zero and nothing else happens - I can’t turn on the HUD, DED, ect.
Did you bother to read my post to you ! At no time have you mentioned the “Idle Detent”
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I get to where the JFS switch automatically toggles off.
What is the RPM at right before this happens?
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Not much more to add except that I find the following:
0. Do the pres-start checks
1. Click the JFS to JFS. In the real jet this empties the brake accumulators that start a small turbine this slowly turns over the main engine
2. I wait to more than 20%. I find anything less then the engine does light off, so normally >20%. The JFS seems to turnover between 20% - 25%
3. I move the throttle a little bit forward during this period so it is not hard back. It is probably about 25%, not as much as 50% (but your mileage may vary)
4. I then Alt-I. I don’t click anything. The reason for this is that I have had so many frustrating experiences that I still find the jet start-up something I need to concentrate on
5. The engine should now light-off. You will hear the JFS switch clunk as someone said above, I believe this is when the JFS clutch disengages and winds down
6. You should not have a the sweet sound of the turbofan powering up. Once the RPM is established I return the throttle to idle and then complete the rest of the checks.Hope this helps.
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I tried the ramp start again. I get to where the JFS switch automatically toggles off. As soon as that happens the RPMs go to zero and nothing else happens - I can’t turn on the HUD, DED, ect.
That sounds like the start bottle running out without ever accomplishing a start.
The real F-16 throttle handle has a specific position for off which is aft of the minimum location that animates in BMS. The minimum position of the throttle as animated in BMS is idle which is the lowest working position when the engine is running. In reality you would lift the inboard end of the throttle handle which allows the outboard end to rotate down so that it can go around a metal gate allowing you to pass from the off to idle position. This is what you would do while the JFS is running to start the engine.
In BMS (using the normal default method) what you do is increase the throttle axis “somewhat” and then press a button or click the cockpit in a certain spot to trigger the transition from off to the working range and back again when it’s time to shut down. Despite the fact that the throttle will visibly animate with the controller axis, logically before that trigger (known as idle detent) is activated, the logical throttle is still back in the off position. The value of the controller throttle axis when the idle detent command is activated determines if the throttle jumps from off to the working range or vice versa.
The following is not strictly the correct or best way to start the BMS F-16 engine but it is as simple and reliable a demonstration as I can come up with:
1. Start the 433 TR 01 Ground Ops TE and join the F-16 flight as ramp start. You may close the canopy to reduce noise if desired.
2. Set the electrical power on by setting the MAIN PWR switch to BATT.Notice on the caution panel the “SEC” annunciator and the RPM gauge with the first green painted mark at 25%. Notice a black hook shaped item at the base of the throttle handle. The mouse cursor will turn green near this item. This is where to click to activate the idle detent function. Despite the throttle handle animating this clickable location will not move. These will be the only references needed.
3. Right-click the JFS to START2. Wait until the RPM increases to stabilize at the first green mark, 25%. The SEC caution will go out roughly 18%.
4. Increase the throttle to the maximum amount possible and confirm the handle animates as far forward as it will go.
5. Click the idle detent location which is now in the middle of the throttle lever connecting arm.
6. Notice the SEC caution comes on briefly and extinguishes the instant the idle detent location is clicked. The throttle is now logically in the working range.
7. Since the engine will not continue to start with the throttle at maximum, return the controller throttle axis to minimum.The engine RPM will stabilize at ~70% within one minute.
It is not strictly necessary to increase the throttle this much in step 4, a moderate amount will do. Maximum setting was chosen because it was a reliable and unambiguous instruction.
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I don’t recall ever seeing mention of Alt+I in any of the myriad startup videos I’ve watched or text I’ve read. People tend to talk about an “idle detent”, and sometimes the need to waggle the throttle back and forth to “get it out of detent”. I was in the same position as the OP until I half remembered the idea of clicking the cutoff release “trigger”. Whether I’m clicking that or some other control hotspot that works for me. But I will have to try out the alternative keyboard input.
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Did you bother to read my post to you ! At no time have you mentioned the “Idle Detent”
Yes.
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I went through the manual and wrote down step by step what Im supposed to do. Trying to follow it to a “T”:
RAMP START (If night - I perform Step 9 first.)
LEFT CONSOLE
1. EXT LIGHTING panel (back).
a. MASTER light switch – NORM.
b. ANTI COLLSION switch - OFF.
c. POSITION – STEADY.
d. WING/TAIL FUSELAGE – BRT.2. AUX COMM panel (back-above EXT LIGHTING).
a. CNI knob – BACKUP.3. FUEL panel (back – above EXT LIGHTING).
a. MASTER FUEL – MASTER (Guard is down).
b. ENG FEED knob – NORM.4. AUDIO 1 panel (Throttle).
a. COMM1 knob – INC.
b. COMM2 knob – INC.
c. MSL knob – set to 12oclock position.
d. THREAT knob – set to 12oclock positon.5. AUDIO 2 panel (Throttle).
a. INTERCOM knob – set to full CW position.
b. ILS knob – INC.6. UHF panel (Throttle; top) – Backup.
a. Lower left knob – BOTH.
b. Lower right knob – refer to briefing and set to MANUAL, PRESET, or GUARD.- If MANUAL – use the 5 small knobs to set frequency.
RIGHT CONSOLE
7. LIGHTING panel (Stick).
a. PRIMARY INST PNL – set CW as needed.
b. DATA ENTRY DISPLAY – set CW as needed.
c. FLOOD – CONSOLES – set CW as needed.
8. AIR COND panel (Stick). I CANT FIND THIS PANEL.
a. AIR SCOURCE knob – NORM.
LEFT CONSOLE
9. ELEC panel (Throttle; below).
a. MAIN PWR – BATT [SHF ALT W].
b. If night Ramp Start: SPOTLIGHT – ON [SHF S]; go back to step 1.10. TEST panel (rear most left panel). Not mandatory – eye candy.
a. FLCS PWR TEST switch – TEST (hold)
b. Wait for 4 FLCS PWR lights to come on.
c. Release FLCS PWR TEST switch.11. ELEC Panel (Throttle; below).
a. MAIN PWR switch – MAIN PWR.12. Close Canopy.
13. ENG & JET START panel (back – above EXT LIGHTING).
a. JET FUEL switch – START 2.14. Observe the following:
a. JFS RUN light comes on after a few seconds.
b. RPMs increase steadily to 20%.
c. At this point check the SEC caution light is off. WHERE IS THIS LIGHT?15. I click Idle Detent and Move Throttle FWD. I MOVE THE THROTTLE TO THE MIDDLE OF ITs RANGE (50%).
16. Observe the following:
a. Monitor lights and engine gauges.
b. FLCS PMG light (ELEC panel) goes off around 40-45% RPM.
c. JET FUEL switch automatically snaps to OFF around 55% RPM. –-------------------- I GET TO THIS POINT AND THEN THE RPMs DROP TO 0%. NOTHING ELSE HAPPENS.
d. ENGINE light (right eyebrow) turns off around 60% RPM.
e. STBY GEN light (ELEC panel) turns off around 60% RPM.
f. MAIN GEN light (ELEC panel) turns off about 10 sec. later.
g. HYD/OIL PRESS light (right eyebrow) turns off between 15%-70% RPM.
h. Check Fuel Flow (700-1700 PPH).
i. Check Oil Pressure (min 15 PSI).
j. Check Nozzle Position (greater than 94%).
k. Check FTIT (below 650 deg C).
l. Check HYD A&B pressure (at the 12 o’clock position).I try proceeding, but the DED, MFDs do not come or the HUD.
RIGHT CONSOLE
17. AVIONICS POWER panel (stick).
a. MMC switch – ON.
b. ST STA switch – ON.
c. MFD switch – ON.
d. UFC switch – ON.
e. GPS switch – ON.
f. DL switch – ON.
g. Wait for DED to come online.
h. INS knob – ALIGN NORM.18. SNSR PWR panel – (stick).
a. RDR ALT – STBY.
b. LEFT HDPT – ON.
c. RIGHT HDPT – ON.
d. FCR – ON.19. Observe the following:
a. Check INS has started aligning – look at DED for INS being incremented.
b. Check flags on ADI. AUX yellow flag on ADI disappears after 60 sec. into INS alignment.20. Turn HUD on: ICP SYM thumbwheel – UP. AS SOON AS I NOTICE THAT THE HUD WONT COME ON - THIS IS WHERE I STOP WITH THE RAMP START.
21. F-ACK (left eyebrow) – PRESS. Review the PFLD.
22. MASTER CAUTION light – PRESS.
23. MFD TEST page – PRESS OSB 3. Clears (MFL) Maintenance Fault List.
LEFT CONSOLE
24. AUX COMM (back-above EXT LIGHTING).
a. CNI knob – UFC.
FRONT
25. Select DTE page on the MFD. Press OSB 3 (LOAD button).
26. ICP – press COM1.
27. DED - input the frequency with the ICP numeric keys.
28. ICP – press ENTR.
29. ICP – press COM2.
30. DED – input the frequency with the ICP numeric keys.
31. ICP – press ENTR.LEFT CONSOLE
32. TEST panel (Not necessary - Eye candy).
a. FIRE OHEAT DETECT – press, hold, and check:- ENG FIRE warning light is on.
- OVERHEAT caution light is on.
- MASTER CAUTION light is on.
- All lights go off when button is released.
b. MAL & IND LTS – press, hold, and check: - Listen for Voice Message System (VMS).
- Check lights are illuminated.
- If no audible sound is heard check INTERCOM knob.
c. PROBE HEAT switch – UP position. (Check MASTER CAUTION light remains OFF.)
d. PROBE HEAT switch – TEST position. (Check PROBE HEAT flashes on the caution panel.)
e. PROBE HEAT switch – OFF.
33. Test FLCS – move Stick and Rudder.
34. FLT CONTROL panel (Not necessary – Eye candy).
a. FLCS BIT switch – BIT.- Green RUN light comes on – flight controls are tested in sequence.
- FLCS BIT WARN will be displayed in HUD.
- T/O LDG CONFIG light may also flash.
- At the end of the test the switch will revert back to original position.
- RUN light will go out.
- If test fails – FAIL light. Perform BIT test again.
b. DIGITAL BACKUP switch – UP;
- Check right eyebrow for DBU light.
- Move Stick/Rudder and check correct operation.
- Move the DIGITAL BACKUP switch – OFF.
c. Once FLCS tests are complete check all switches are in DOWN position.
35. MANUAL TRIM panel.
a. Check that all needles are centered.
b. TRIM/AP DISC switch – DISC.- Ensure that stick trim actions do not cause flight control movement or needle deviation.
c. TRIM/AP DISC switch – NORM. - Apply stick trim and check needle deviation and re-center.
AIR REFUEL CHECK
36. FUEL panel.
a. AIR REFUEL switch – OPEN.- Check right indexer for a blue RDY light.
- Press the stick DISC button and RDY should be replaced by an amber DISC indication. After 3 seconds the DISC should go out and RDY light should return.
b. AIR REFUEL switch – CLOSE. Blue RDY light should go out.
EPU TEST
37. EPU panel.
a. EPU switch – OFF (left click).
b. EPU switch – NORM (right click).
38. ELEC panel.
a. Check both the EPU GEN and EPU PMG lights are off.39. TEST panel.
a. PRK Break – disengaged. (Make sure aircraft is still on chocks.)
b. Move throttle to 80% RPM.
c. EPU/GEN switch – toggle and hold. Check lights:- EPU AIR light on (EPU panel).
- EPU GEN and EPU PMG lights off (ELEC panel).
- EPU RUN light (EPU panel) comes on after 5 seconds.
- If green EPU RUN light fails to come on reinitiate the test with slightly higher throttle setting.
d. EPU/GEN switch – release. Return throttle to idle.
40. ECM panel.
a. OPR switch – OPR.41. AUDIO panels.
a. Check correct volumes on COMM1, COMM 2, and INTERCOM.
SEC CHECK (steps 42- 43 not mandatory)
42. ENG & JET START panel.
a. ENG CONT switch – SEC.- MASTER CAUTION light and SEC caution light should come on.
- Check NOZ POS indicator (right instrument stack.) Engine nozzle closes and should indicate less than 5%.
- Check smooth RPM operation while in SEC.
b. ENG CONT switch – PRI. Close switch guard. - MASTER CAUTION and SEC lights should go out.
43. SPEED BRAKES.
a. Throttle Speed Brake switch - hold DOWN to open.
b. Check SPEED BRAKE indictor all dots showing (panel above throttle by yellow lever).
c. Throttle Speed Brake switch-UP to close. Hold UP until CLOSE is shown on SB indicator.44. THREAT WARNING AUX panel – left auxiliary console.
a. POWER button – Press. SYSTEM POWER green light should illuminate.45. CMDS panel.
a. RWR switch – ON.
b. JMR switch – ON.
c. 01 switch – ON.
d. 02 switch – ON.
e. CH switch – ON.
f. FL switch – ON.
g. MODE knob – AUTO.46. GEAR panel.
a. CAT I/III Switch – set according to your loadout.47. THREAT WARNING PRIME panel
a. SYS TEST button – Press. Check indication on the RWR displays.
b. MSL LAUNCH indicator – Press.
c. HANDOFF button – Press.
SET MFDs AND UFC
48. ICP 2 A-LOW – Press.
a. Move DCS down to MSL FLOOR.
b. Input 14000 and press ICP ENTR (low alt warning for Korea).49. ICP 1 T-ILS – Press.
a. Input ground TACAN (check frequency & band for the air field – 75X is for Kunsan).- CHAN - Input ICP 7 then ICP 5.
- BAND - If Y band is active, enter ICP 0.
- Make sure TCN is set to T/R mode. If not DCS right to cycle.
- Press ICP ENTR.
b. Input ILS frequency for Runway (Runway 36 for Kunsan is 110.3).
- Move DCS to the active line where the TACAN was entered and input 11030, then ENTR. The system automatically recognizes frequency and inputs it to FRQ.
- Check DED to make sure it displays ILS ON. If OFF go to AUDIO 2 panel and switch to ON.
50. Input BINGO Joker level.
a. ICP LIST – Press.
b. ICP 2- Press.
c. Select BINGO page and input 3000. Press ICP ENTR.
FUEL CHECK
51. FUEL QTY SEL panel.
a. Knob – TEST- Check both needles of the fuel gauge. 2000lbs and 6000 lbs.
- Check both FWD and AFT FUEL LOW lights should be illuminated on the caution panel.
b. Knob-NORM; A/L = 2675-2810 lbs., F/R = 3100-3250 lbs.
c. Knob – RSVR; both needles should read 460-480lbs.
d. Knob – INT WING; both needles should read 525-550 lbs.
e. Knob - EXT WING; both should read 2300-2420 lbs (when carrying 370 gal wing tanks).
f. Knob – EXT CTR; A/L = 0 lbs., F/R = 1800-1890 lbs (when carrying a centreline).
g. Return knob to NORM.
PILOT FAULT LIST DISPLAY (PFLD) CHECK
52. Check the PFLD for any faults not acknowledged.
53. F-ACK – Press.
54. Check MASTER CAUTION light.
55. Check EPU fuel quantity – should be 95-102%.
INS ALIGNMENT CHECK
56. HUD - Check if ALIGN is flashing.
a. If ALIGN is flashing go to AVIONICS POWER panel.
b. Toggle the INS knob from ALIGN NORM to NAV.
57. GEAR panel
a. LANDING LIGHT – TAXI.
b. PARKING BRAKE – ON.
58. EXT LIGHTING panel.
a. ANTI COLLISION lights – ON.
b. POSITION .- FLASH.
- WING/TAIL-BRT.
- FUSELAGE-BRT.
59. Arm Seat.
60. Stick - Enable NWS.
ATC
61. TOWER COMMANDS – Tower Page. 8 Remove Chocks.
62. TOWER COMMANDS – Approach Page. 1 Request QNH (write down local pressure setting).
63. Input QNH into Pressure Window of the Altimeter.
64. TOWER COMMANDS – Approach Page. 6 Takeoff Runway.
65. TOWER COMMANDS – Tower Page. 5 Request Taxi. - If MANUAL – use the 5 small knobs to set frequency.
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….c. At this point check the SEC caution light is off. WHERE IS THIS LIGHT? …
On the main caution warning panel …. just right of your right knee … forward of the stick.
…. 15. I click Idle Detent and Move Throttle FWD. I MOVE THE THROTTLE TO THE MIDDLE OF ITs RANGE (50%).
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No; that is backwards. Move the throttle forward, then click the idle detent.
Then, as Frederf says, move the throttle forward further and insure RPM are climbing steadily before moving the throttle back to idle.
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I went through the manual and wrote down step by step what Im supposed to do. Trying to follow it to a “T”:
.I think you should reed the manuals, a lot of this information is there.
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I think you should reed the manuals, a lot of this information is there.
I did. I made these notes from the manual because the in depth manual is hard for me to follow while in sim.
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I did. I made these notes from the manual because the in depth manual is hard for me to follow while in sim.
Section 1.2 of the TO-BMS1F-16CM-1 will show you the location of the SEC light and air cond panel
Also there is a lot of websites and video out there training and showing engine start. (over 14k in google)
For example this video
it has a lot of errors, but it has the basics and is more that good enough to give you an idea. Maybe you can see what your missing. -
I was having the same issue as Wedge and Supanova yesterday for my first ramp starts.
Your JFS isn’t toggling off - like it’s supposed to at 55% - (I think the switch will still be in Start 2, the indicator will simply extinguish if you don’t get a successful light of the engine).
The specific sequence of pressing the Idle Detent key and moving the throttle isn’t very intuitive or clear from the manuals (I was attempting to set the throttle into the Idle Detent and then bring it out of the detent through throttle movement, which I later learned was incorrect).
Either the hotkey (Alt-I) or button mapped on my throttle wasn’t working, but it seemed as if every combination of pressing the hotkey and moving the throttle wasn’t resulting in a successful start.
What I had to do after START 2 was selected, the SEC light on the warning panel extinguished, and the RPM rose to about 20%, was bring the throttle forward to about halfway, click the area just left of the paddle switch on the throttle with the mouse, and then bring the throttle back to idle. This will proceed with a successful engine start.
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Section 1.2 of the TO-BMS1F-16CM-1 will show you the location of the SEC light and air cond panel
Also there is a lot of websites and video out there training and showing engine start. (over 14k in google)
For example this video
it has a lot of errors, but it has the basics and is more that good enough to give you an idea. Maybe you can see what your missing.I want to go by the book/proper protocol. I know I could have made notes from videos, but most all are from 4.32 or leave out a lot of steps just to get you up and running. To me if you are going to go through the trouble of ramp starting dont cut corners and use proper protocol for full immersion - the whole point of a ramp start. How many real world pilots short cut it?
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I want to go by the book/proper protocol. I know I could have made notes from videos, but most all are from 4.32 or leave out a lot of steps just to get you up and running. To me if you are going to go through the trouble of ramp starting dont cut corners and use proper protocol for full immersion - the whole point of a ramp start. How many real world pilots short cut it?
How many real world pilots start their RL F16 sitting in front of a computer screen using a keyfile? There will be compromises in the Sim. Such as the precise way Idle-Detent works to get a good start, for example.
Your choices boil down to …. 1.) Do it the exact proper RL F16 way and maybe get a bad result in BMS, 2.) Do it in a way that works for BMS but maybe isn’t RL perfect, or 3.) Build a pit with a RL TQS and a RL Idle-Detent and map BMS commands accordingly.
(No guarantee on BMS compatibility for #3).
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I went through the manual and wrote down step by step what Im supposed to do. Trying to follow it to a “T”:
7. LIGHTING panel (Stick).
a. PRIMARY INST PNL – set CW as needed.
b. DATA ENTRY DISPLAY – set CW as needed.
c. FLOOD – CONSOLES – set CW as needed.
8. AIR COND panel (Stick). I CANT FIND THIS PANEL.
a. AIR SCOURCE knob – NORM.The AIR SCOURCE knob found on the AIR CONT panel is on the left side under the arm rest. You can get the click sticky through the arm rest, just right click it once to set to NORM.
Hope this helps
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I was able to fully complete the ramp start by manipulating the throttle more like advised then hitting idle detent switch/button on the throttle. I wish this was a little more clear in the manual.
Thanks so much for everyone’s help with this.
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I didn’t think the SEC light would be such a problem. I just meant it as visible feedback in the process.
The idle detent clickzone (or alt-i for the callback, it’s the same result) will change which side of the OFF-IDLE fence the throttle is on. However when the idle detent command is pressed the software looks what is the placement of the throttle axis. Depending on the current condition it will change state or not. This is why you place the throttle axis first and then submit the command by activating the idle detent command.
Throttle OFF
If throttle is near idle when idle detent is triggered -> Remain OFF
If throttle is advanced when idle detent is triggered -> Switch to ONThrottle ON (working range)
If throttle is near idle when idle detent is triggered -> Switch to OFF
If throttle is advanced when idle detent is triggered -> Remain ONSimple?
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Your choices boil down to …. 1.) Do it the exact proper RL F16 way and maybe get a bad result in BMS, 2.) Do it in a way that works for BMS but maybe isn’t RL perfect, or 3.) Build a pit with a RL TQS and a RL Idle-Detent and map BMS commands accordingly.
(No guarantee on BMS compatibility for #3).
It works fine, incidentally. You set the Idle Cutoff option in the BMS configuration, and set the IDLE part of the axis to just aft of the IDLE position on your throttle. Throttle up after JFS spools up then just consists of lifting the throttle over the detent, and dropping it into IDLE. Much easier than fluffing around with all these Alt + Is and Idle Detent button presses and mouse clicks…
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It works fine, incidentally. You set the Idle Cutoff option in the BMS configuration, and set the IDLE part of the axis to just aft of the IDLE position on your throttle. Throttle up after JFS spools up then just consists of lifting the throttle over the detent, and dropping it into IDLE. Much easier than fluffing around with all these Alt + Is and Idle Detent button presses and mouse clicks…
But it’s not the same as Real. I may have to quit until I can do this: [
]( )Nothing else is real enough anymore. It ruins the “immersion”. It’s almost as bad as the mobile ringing mid-bomb run.
Ahhhh Gawd!!! It just hit me. It doesn’t matter what I do. BMS …. Is. Not. Real. I’m crushed.
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Actually, that was the kind of thing I was advocating. You said, build a pit with RL gear, but that you had no guarantee on BMS being able to make sense of it. Well, its been done (not by me sadly!). And it works with BMS.
Incidentally - his throttle rail works incorrectly