SAMS have unlimited ammo?
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RL tactics depends on S-75 version, 2 or 3 missiles has been used. In Vietnam, there was even “light” S-75 battalions launching one missile and started fleeing.
Falcon 4 BMS 4.33 launches 3 missiles. If these missiles reach a point that there is no chance to get a kill (not necessarily max TOF), the battery launches more 3 missiles. The game goes on, until you are killed or the battery is out of missiles (6 launchers x 2 missiles/launcher).
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Show me please one official document which states that a S-75 or a S-125 do not launch all its weapons when under attack, please.
The SAM logic still has some flaws, but as stated many times in this forum, it will be dealed with in the proper time. The problem with the SAM does not stop with the SAMs, it has to do with many factors like SAM AI, ARM weapons, correct engagement envelope, ….
I don’t have to show any report official document because, i.e. a S-75 only has 6 missiles available to launch. So is impossible to launch 12 in this short time. Reloading a launcher takes about 12 minutes. In Falcon, 12 missiles are launched one after another.
So, this issue should be corrected.
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Battery has 6 launchers with 1 missile for direct use + 1 missile for quick reload. That makes 12 missiles.
I agree though that the reload is indeed too fast. BMS still does not model that.
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Last test a few minutes ago:
Mission Type: DEAD
Flight Unique Id: Cowboy1
1 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16CM-52
Contry: U.S.FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Ender joined as Cowboy11 at 09:09:11
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:10:39
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:10:56
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:11:08
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:11:17
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:11:27
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:11:39
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:11:49
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:12:00
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:12:10
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:12:26
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:12:35
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:12:45I can upload ACMI file if you want.
12 launches in less than 4 minutes. (not realistic) :? After that they stop the launches.
So that is the answer to rtavest’s original question.
The same behavior than in 4.32. This behavior should be corrected.
EDIT: I have not tried waiting to see if they return to recharge I think That could be a good test too.
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As noted, 70 seconds for a reload is pushing it.
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I thought also this is not realistic. Hopefully changed in the next release?
Thanks for the replies! -
I have never survived 12 SA2 launches; normally the 3rd launch downs me no matter what I do (beaming, diving, chaff or preparation H) except for getting grass in my intake and even then I have been downed. If I am engaged by an SA2 on a flight and fly another flight a few minutes later I will continuously be engaged by the same SA2 until I hit the radar or destroy the site. I have never seen an SA2 site run out of missiles. When micro-managing the ATO at campaign start and flying consecutive missions I see no indication of shortage of ordinance. Try it. Personally, since this is a game (shhhhhh I didn’t say that actually) I like the fact that they have to be destroyed in order to stop engaging me. Ender you hung around that SA-2 site within engagement range for 2 hours?
@Ender:Last test a few minutes ago:
Mission Type: DEAD
Flight Unique Id: Cowboy1
1 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16CM-52
Contry: U.S.FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Ender joined as Cowboy11 at 09:09:11
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:10:39
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:10:56
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:11:08
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:11:17
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:11:27
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:11:39
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:11:49
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:12:00
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:12:10
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:12:26
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:12:35
Event SA2 launched at Ender 09:12:45I can upload ACMI file if you want.
12 launches in less than 4 minutes. (not realistic) :? After that they stop the launches.
So that is the answer to rtavest’s original question.
The same behavior than in 4.32. This behavior should be corrected.
EDIT: I have not tried waiting to see if they return to recharge I think That could be a good test too.
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XD
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Wow, how did you manage to dodge 12 missiles ? Can I ask you the acmi ? My skill need to be patched here lol…
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Wow, how did you manage to dodge 12 missiles ? Can I ask you the acmi ? My skill need to be patched here lol…
Keep your speed up and limit your G in the break. SA-2s are no big thing.
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Yeah, 1-5 missiles often not really a problem, but 12 ? That’s why I think I need new tricks ….hehehe
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yeah they can also be outrun if launched at 10 miles. That launch sequence looks like it could be from multiple SA2 sites also. Like the 3 at start of many KTO campaigns NNW of Seoul. Does pilot and campaign level of difficulty settings apply here too? Lets see that acmi!
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Wow, how did you manage to dodge 12 missiles ? Can I ask you the acmi ? My skill need to be patched here lol…
yeah they can also be outrun if launched at 10 miles. That launch sequence looks like it could be from multiple SA2 sites also. Like the 3 at start of many KTO campaigns NNW of Seoul. Does pilot and campaign level of difficulty settings apply here too? Lets see that acmi!
Of course!
In less than 4 min, all missiles launched.
And of course, the ACMI can be downloaded HERE
A few tips used:
- You can use your ECMs if you stay away for 7-8 nm (Thats the BT Range of the Fan Song) to defeat first missiles. (the first 3 missiles in the ACMI)
- If you decide to enter in the “dead zone” you must evade them “kinematically”. You need to have visual contact with the missile, put it at 3-9 and hard turn when is near. You can see in ACMI 3:14 that I waited too much and I was near to be killed.
- Continue “dancing with sams” until after 12 there is no more launches.
- It is relatively easy to do this with SA-2, 3, 4 and 5.
- Try to learn how to to this without going “to the weeds” to evade them. May be a Flak Trap will be waiting for you…
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Okay, so you can dance with SAMs (and do it very well)
But since BMS is a simulator, the question remains: is it realistic?
I don’t think so… -
I don’t think so too. That’s why I said in my first post in this thread that this issue should be evaluated and corrected if is it possible.
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Downloading, thanks man. [emoji106]
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Okay, so you can dance with SAMs (and do it very well)
But since BMS is a simulator, the question remains: is it realistic?
I don’t think so…Nope it is not. As it is not possible to practice missile avoidance like we can in BMS. Whatever we do, there will always be ppl practicing passive cheat and it will always be possible to find weak points in model (weak points which also exist certainly IRL but that pilot can’t experiment the same way we does.)
We also haw to keep the “game play” balanced considering simulation weak points.
Having to wait 5 to 15min to get the launchers rearmed is maybe more realistic, but could break the campaign’s balance. Same story with the SAM deployment delay … If we implement a 30 to 120min delay after an SA6 has moved, what will be the result?
Users must understand that we can’t do everything the way we want or the way we like. It must stay balanced with other features (anti missile is also a good example … If we implement CM, we have also to implement CCM … etc …)
And if we implement the reload delays, there will be some ppl to complain because there is no loader 3D models, then, will complains about the fact that they are not animated …
So yes, it is something to consider … but will not necessarily be “fixed” as you suggest regardless of possible issues. It will have to be evaluated, and maybe postponed or abandoned.
EDIT: about missile avoidance, Molni has a good point about feedbacks some pilot had during Vietnam war. (See post below)
Nowadays, such pragmatic and empiric feedbacks do not really exist anymore and systems+missiles has been upgraded …