Formation Tips Request
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Good Day, All
Now that I am flying multiplayer I have realized my formation flying and join up procedures need some work. I was wondering what tricks or tips you may have figured out.
What I have been doing is…- Flying the AAR mission and simply “formating” on the tanker , which has helped
- Flying as wing or preferably as #3. There’s where I could use the tips. It seems that no matter how quick I follow off the Boat, Lead pulls far ahead(ie: BVR) . Without using padlock(which feels like “cheating”) I can’t find him. Also, radar scanning is hit or miss, and yes I am scanning with antenna elevation. The last time I flew, I went to Dogfight and “waved the flashlight around” until I got a lock. Then I’m going full sustained Burner just to catch up, and sometimes don’t. The join up is the issue.
Datalink helps, but not a lot.
I am somewhat wondering if the AI is simply not designed to deal with human wingmates? I suspect some will write “fly with humans”. My squadron mates are great and very supportive, but I want to get more up to speed before I interfere with their enjoyment.
Hence, my request for pointers.
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Now that I am flying multiplayer … It seems that no matter how quick I follow off the Boat, Lead pulls far ahead(ie: BVR) …If this is happening in multiplayer, this is leads problem, not yours. There should be established rejoin procedures to allow the later AC in the air to catch and rejoin with lead AC without excessive fuel burn.
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Maintain an altitude (slightly) below him and look up for him, then locate him and work the rejoin. If scanning with the radar in TWS I always reduce the bar scan to 2 from 3 - I find I get quicker locks this way (presumably by scanning less sky where I’m pretty sure there’s nothing to find). And if RWS doesn’t find him…well…he’s gone to light speed - try VS!
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Flying formation with the AI (other than the tanker) can be difficult because they are unpredictable so I don’t have any tips for that. But for formation flying in MP some things that have helped me over the years that better virtual pilots than me have taught me:
-Brief the takeoff procedure. Like Agave said, lead should make it easy on you to rejoin. If it took a lot of fuel to catch lead and get in formation than lead is doing it wrong. Wingmen typically end up with less fuel than lead but if it is a big difference it is usually because of a poorly executed departure rejoin.
-Setup your radar before you takeoff. Set it to 5 or 10 miles in RWS so you aren’t messing with it right after you get airborne. Even if you see lead, lock him up in NAV so you have his airspeed and other info. Nobody should be calling buddy spike right after takeoff, so don’t worry about being in TWS or RWS (if lead doesn’t want to hear the RWR going off he can adjust his threat volume prior to takeoff and turn it up at fence in)
-Always keep your flight lead above your FPM so you don’t have to worry about running into him or being unsafe if you have too much overtake (I remember reading an old post on F-16.net that goes into more detail. I’ll see if I can find it). If joining to finger four or something I just put lead right above the airspeed or altitude box in my hud.
-Approach lead from below and since you guys briefed the departure you should know what power setting/airspeed he is flying, but even if you don’t you should have it from your radar. Decrease your closure as you approach him and then once in position make small power corrections (i.e. if you are falling behind, add a little power then bring the throttle back to where you had it and wait to see if it was enough… if it wasn’t, repeat and repeat until you are in position… same for if you are too far forward - pull the power back a little and immediately bring it back to where you had it, then wait for the reaction and repeat as needed).
EDIT: Here is the post I was referring to:
Rejoins are to the inside of the turn unless trucking along straight and level, then it’s to the left side. Usually, if a turning rejoin becomes a straight ahead, then flow to the left unless you are already in a close route position or closer.
Radar Assisted Trail Departures are just that, instrument departures as single ships utilizing the radar to keep situational awareness on your flight lead. We use 20 second spacing between takeoffs to establish a 2-3 mile trail. The contract speed for that is 350 knots till visual using 850FTIT in the climbs. For turns, wait until the TLL in the hud reads 20-25 then start a standard rate turn to follow lead. Once visual and cleared to rejoin, set 400 knots and rejoin as normal. Vis rejoins are just that as well, we use up to 20 second spacing and if you still see your flight lead on departure, then get to 400 (no higher for FAA rules below 10k) and rejoin as normal. If you don’t see your flight lead on departure (then your really shouldn’t be flying Vipers) look for him on the radar. He’ll be the solid history that is closest to you on your nose on a ten mile scope.
As for the radar, on RATD, we set ten mile scope initially with the El Strobe (elevation scan thumbwheel) so the T on the radar is looking slightly above level. We call that having the hammer on the anvil. Locking up your flight lead is the desired method (in the Nav Master Mode) but is not required. If you can maintain SA on lead and leave your radar open to search, great. But traffic aviodance is lead’s job, therefore your job is to not get lost. There is a lot of gucci stuff on the CCIPd Vipers to help with SA but the radar is primary. This brings me to the most important point on RATD/RATR. NEVER have your flight lead under your Flight Path Marker unless your are just taking off or established on an instrument approach. As much as humanly possible, put his TD container over either the airspeed or altitude tape in the hud. That way you can’t run into him if your aren’t watching your airspeed in relation to his closely enough. It’s been done.
Formations post rejoin depend on what you’re mission is. Most often we fly offset container. Two flies Line ABreast 6-9k feet from lead, three sets about a two mile trail lining up between lead and two, then four flies LAB 6-9k off of three, usually on the same side as two but doesn’t have to. If you don’t fly on the same side as two, then watch your altitude stack in the turns and make sure you have deconfliction. I’ve seen this get dorked up and two friends had a 66 foot close pass. Other formations include fluid four, wall, etc. Two ship formations are LAB, route, close, fighting wing, wedge, extended wedge, sensor wedge, etc. I’m sure you can find graphical depictions on google if you desire.
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best way is to practice flying formation in multi player…Airwolf come fly with us some more!
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Fly every day, practising formation work as you accomplish missions.
I found the following immensely useful - http://falcon.blu3wolf.com/Docs/FAST_FKG.pdf
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best way is to practice flying formation in multi player…Airwolf come fly with us some more!
Oh, don’t worry, I’ll be there.
Thanks to all for the useful advise -
In campaign, after I completed the mission objective and don’t expect interference in the way home anymore, I tell my wingman to go home, not take lead. He won’t be unpredictable but fly straight to homeplate in a steady flight, about 300 kts. Great for practicing formation flying, works for me anyway
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To add to the very good tips cited above, i also recommend reading the MCH (multi command handbook) that can be found in your document folder inside BMS 4.33 folder.
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I love most of the information here
Demo has great info with briefing the takeoff and rejoin procedure. We actually have our takeoff procedure in the SOP so there is no confusion about what you are supposed to be doing and how you should be doing it.
Biggest thing is practice,practice,practice, I have spent hours upon hours just learning my stick and how the plane reacts to inputs I give it. The other thing is if you are flying combat missions you are not the Thunderbirds so the need to get close to your lead is not necessary most want you spread out but visual.
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Demo has great info with briefing the takeoff and rejoin procedure. We actually have our takeoff procedure in the SOP so there is no confusion about what you are supposed to be doing and how you should be doing it.
While a great idea, I would suggest briefing takeoffs on all sorties anyway - it should only take a half a minute or so anyway. If you always fly exactly the same takeoff though, or almost always, then I guess briefing T/O’s ‘As Standard’ isnt such a big deal.
Hopefully its not a problem for the 27th, but one thing I have seen all too often is SOPs lending confusion rather than dispelling it.
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Let me make my answer short.
Flying formation is easy.
All it needs is practice.
My advice is the following:
1. Get to know the fingertip and route signs (where and how the other plane looks while at the right spot).
2. Make a two ship Falcon TE with you in dash 2 and AI leading in long straight lines.
3. Fly, fly, fly until you can do it without thinking…just like driving.
5. Then make the same TE but with multiple turns…and…fly, fly, fly until the crazy AI doesn’t bother you no more.
6. Then…keep practicing it on a regular basis. -
How I have learnt close formation flying offline:
- As mentioned above, learn first to fly close formation as nr.2 with AI as nr. 1 in long straight lines.
- Next step is flying in close formation with turns. Create a 2 - ship Bar - cap mission, cap steerpoints separation 10nm and 90 - 180 deg. , duration 20 - 30 minutes. Fly the mission as nr.2 . The AI will fly an orbit in the cap station, making smooth turn’s between the 2 steerpoints. The distance between them determines how long straight flying you have between the turning points. Also, the position between the two steerpoints will determine, if the cap is left or right handed, I alternate between the 2.
This method, works for me only in 4.32, in 4.33 the AI is flying very different (idle and speed brakes open in the beginning of the turn, followed by full AB). Haven’t installed 4.33.1 yet. - Same in DCS, in the mission editor there is an orbit flying option.
- In fsx, I fly a mission solo recording the flight with fs recorder (freeware). I write down the turns (left or right) to remember them and fly the mission as I would have if next to me were a wingman (smooth turns, steady speed etc). Now I playback with fsrecorder the mission
in a second aircraft as a wingman flying close formation with myself. - Practice practice practice. The secret for close formation is making very small adjustments in pitch / roll and speed. The throttle movement should be 1% ( is a vey nice video - in greek -taken from a real HAF breefing, the pilot mentions the need for these small adjustments).