LGB low level toss
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You can try a JDAM toss as well?
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yeah, generally i don’t toss LGBs unless i’m forced to by the theater or weapon availability. it doesn’t work as well as you’d think unless you do buddy lasing, the toss range is mediocre and tossing one bomb at a time is very problematic with 2000 pounders due to the dissimilar drag/weight after one is gone.
there are niches for LGBs- generally that they hit moving targets. unfortunately for GBU 10/24 there is nothing in-sim that really requires a 2000 lb bomb that also is capable of movement. for general strike tasks, GPS just works far better and is much simpler and quicker to use.
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You can try a JDAM toss as well?
Why toss a GPS guided weapon, just drop it through the clouds.
Why make life more difficult than it needs to be?
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Un S/D-EADable SAM threat?
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Why toss a GPS guided weapon, just drop it through the clouds.
Why make life more difficult than it needs to be?
They’re not standoff weapons so you need to get close-ish. Although I’ve no idea how ‘loftable’ they are compared to an LGB.
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Why toss a GPS guided weapon, just drop it through the clouds.
Why make life more difficult than it needs to be?
there are these creatures called radar SAMs you might have heard of that sometimes prevent it
luckily no matter how good the russians get at radars they still can’t see through hills
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Tossing a weapon - any weapon - is primarily done to increase it’s standoff distance at release. Of course there is a point of diminishing returns as this may go, but you use what you have.
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I keep reading that dudes want to ingress low and fast. That might be the cool thing to do but unless you enjoy getting shot at (I don’t), stay high. You will drop a GBU-38 much farther out at 20-30K’ with a level delivery (or even dive) than you will coming in low and trying to loft it in. Stay high, stay fast.
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*unless you’re up against high-tier adversaries in which case high & fast is instant and unavoidable death by sa10
sa10 can’t see through a hill
but it can see through about 60nm of dead air and silent-launch you to death with no warning
sure it’s not exactly safe but assuming the target you are attacking is actually worth attacking it can be worth the risk*
*who knows if this is true in the real world but as long as we’re not risking our lives here low-level ingress to defeat long range radar SAM area denial is a reasonable strategy
high & fast works against anything up to maybe SA-6, SA-6 and up means it’s no longer really an option if you don’t have a SEAD escort / don’t have SDBs / don’t have HARMs for your sead escort
low level ingress is by no means some magical cure-all really it puts you in far more danger 99% of the time because the risk of clearing a hill and eating both barrels of a shilka is ever present, but there are some threats and circumstances that mandate it, for a variety of reasons. much of the terrain near china and deep into north korea is perfect; too remote to be infested by enemy MANPADS, and hilly enough to present an annoyance to SA-10+
anyway yeah i don’t recommend toss unless you have a specific reason for doing it and certainly not really against anything you’ll find fighting the DPRK.
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Clear case of poor mission planning. Weather is important to know. Also wrong weapon selection for the previous reason.
Sent from TapaTalk
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@Cik:
*unless you’re up against high-tier adversaries in which case high & fast is instant and unavoidable death by sa10
sa10 can’t see through a hill
but it can see through about 60nm of dead air and silent-launch you to death with no warning
sure it’s not exactly safe but assuming the target you are attacking is actually worth attacking it can be worth the risk*
*who knows if this is true in the real world but as long as we’re not risking our lives here low-level ingress to defeat long range radar SAM area denial is a reasonable strategy
high & fast works against anything up to maybe SA-6, SA-6 and up means it’s no longer really an option if you don’t have a SEAD escort / don’t have SDBs / don’t have HARMs for your sead escort
low level ingress is by no means some magical cure-all really it puts you in far more danger 99% of the time because the risk of clearing a hill and eating both barrels of a shilka is ever present, but there are some threats and circumstances that mandate it, for a variety of reasons. much of the terrain near china and deep into north korea is perfect; too remote to be infested by enemy MANPADS, and hilly enough to present an annoyance to SA-10+
anyway yeah i don’t recommend toss unless you have a specific reason for doing it and certainly not really against anything you’ll find fighting the DPRK.
If there are hills this just means they can get higher as well, so it works both ways. They aren’t going to let the radars sit in a valley. But yes what you’re talking about is valid but without talking about specific ranges, they’re going to see you at a range well before you can be within range at that low of altitude. A GBU-38 loft from 200’ and you’re looking at about 3-6 NM in range. Additionally, how do you know where this -10 is at. They’re mobile (or somewhat mobile) so you probably don’t have Cat I or II coords on it. Meaning you need to stay up and get a TGP on it or do some other fancy stuff to find it.
Not to mention, you’re going to sit in a 10 MEZ 3-4 NM from it while you lase a LGB you lofted. You could loft a 38 in there and haul ass but you’re going to have a tough time doing an SPI SLEW with very little time with a TGP on.
All that while dodging AAA for 40-50 miles. There are ways to handle each threat. Just some things to think about.
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It’s sometimes just fun to do things in BMS that you wouldn’t do in real life.
And the 10 doesn’t have to be the target. I’m building a mission for fun where you loft 38s into a hostile Aviano air base (so Cat 1 grids no problem) coming from the north going up a mountain side and slicing back. It works out perfectly (roughly 7/8 nm pull up point along the mountains).
It’s cool to do, even though it wouldn’t be my choice in real life.
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Guys… Lofting is a VERY practical technique in RL and RL pilots are practicing it all the time.
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Guys… Lofting is a VERY practical technique in RL and RL pilots are practicing it all the time.
Hmm that must be a non-American pilot thing. I’ve practiced it probably twice in the last year. It definitely has its place for sure.
Now a dive-glide, that’s a whole different story. We’ll practice those much more. That and simuls.
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Hmm that must be a non-American pilot thing. I’ve practiced it probably twice in the last year. It definitely has its place for sure.
Now a dive-glide, that’s a whole different story. We’ll practice those much more. That and simuls.
Could you go into any details for those two profiles? Is a dive-glide different than a pure ‘dive’ attack. I take it ‘simuls’ is a simultaneous release from 2 or more aircraft right? Timed to achieve simultaneous weapon TOT?
In separate question - how much emphasis is put on errors relating to the various ranging methods - BARO, RAD ALT, LASER, PR etc Is there a significant day-to-day difference in weapon delivery accuracy to warrant a more detailed modelling in BMS? It’s always been on my want list for years, but is it worth the effort? I suppose the negative effects are somewhat negated with PGM’s?
Thanks.
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Could you go into any details for those two profiles? Is a dive-glide different than a pure ‘dive’ attack. I take it ‘simuls’ is a simultaneous release from 2 or more aircraft right? Timed to achieve simultaneous weapon TOT?
In separate question - how much emphasis is put on errors relating to the various ranging methods - BARO, RAD ALT, LASER, PR etc Is there a significant day-to-day difference in weapon delivery accuracy to warrant a more detailed modelling in BMS? It’s always been on my want list for years, but is it worth the effort? I suppose the negative effects are somewhat negated with PGM’s?
Thanks.
Yah it’s the same. Use the Rule of 7s: for what distance you are from the target subtract that from 7 and it’ll tell you how many degrees (in tens) nose low to go (e.g. 4 mile wheel around the target, you need to get to 7-4 = 30 degrees nose low).
Simuls are for IR deconfliction when the targets are close. If close enough the blast from one bomb will cause IR issues for the TGP in the 2nd jet. So aim to have both bombs impact at the same time so this is not an issue.
Yah so Baro ranging is what is typically used when everything is going well. When you have a TGP and you fire the laser you’re going to get Laser Ranging which will be most accurate. RALT and PR are backups in case you do not have FCR ranging. Honestly it’s not something I’ve even looked at or messed around in the jet nor sim. I’d really have to get into the books to see what types of accuracy issues there are. Laser ranging is your best bet.
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Hmm that must be a non-American pilot thing. I’ve practiced it probably twice in the last year. It definitely has its place for sure.
Now a dive-glide, that’s a whole different story. We’ll practice those much more. That and simuls.
USN and USMC pilots loft LGBs all the time…
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Yah it’s the same. Use the Rule of 7s: for what distance you are from the target subtract that from 7 and it’ll tell you how many degrees (in tens) nose low to go (e.g. 4 mile wheel around the target, you need to get to 7-4 = 30 degrees nose low).
Simuls are for IR deconfliction when the targets are close. If close enough the blast from one bomb will cause IR issues for the TGP in the 2nd jet. So aim to have both bombs impact at the same time so this is not an issue.
Yah so Baro ranging is what is typically used when everything is going well. When you have a TGP and you fire the laser you’re going to get Laser Ranging which will be most accurate. RALT and PR are backups in case you do not have FCR ranging. Honestly it’s not something I’ve even looked at or messed around in the jet nor sim. I’d really have to get into the books to see what types of accuracy issues there are. Laser ranging is your best bet.
In my Harrier days it was just a simple 30 over, 30 up, 30 down…same logic worked for a 10 degree low pop as well - you just had to figure the pop distance.
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USN and USMC pilots loft LGBs all the time…
Good on 'em. As a USAF dude, we just don’t do it a whole lot. I believe those guys are dropping PWIIIs…
The issue with lofting and PWIIs is that they use Bang-Bang guidance. You need the bombs to maintain at least 35 degrees of dive angle or they begin running out of energy and fall short (big issue with the PWII). If you loft and the bomb doesn’t reach the appropriate apex because you didn’t loft steep enough or began lasing too soon then you make it more difficult for the bomb.
Like I said this is pretty much only done when you need to stay below the weather and you don’t have IAMs.
We practice it occasionally with BDU-50s and running in at 500’ and executing a pop or loft attack just to practice but it’s basically to build airmanship. I guess if it was a real war and everything went to shit then we could execute those attacks. The world is much more advanced these days.
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Good on 'em. As a USAF dude, we just don’t do it a whole lot. I believe those guys are dropping PWIIIs…
The issue with lofting and PWIIs is that they use Bang-Bang guidance. You need the bombs to maintain at least 35 degrees of dive angle or they begin running out of energy and fall short (big issue with the PWII). If you loft and the bomb doesn’t reach the appropriate apex because you didn’t loft steep enough or began lasing too soon then you make it more difficult for the bomb.
Like I said this is pretty much only done when you need to stay below the weather and you don’t have IAMs.
We practice it occasionally with BDU-50s and running in at 500’ and executing a pop or loft attack just to practice but it’s basically to build airmanship. I guess if it was a real war and everything went to shit then we could execute those attacks. The world is much more advanced these days.
Yes…back in the day when I was involved in planning stuff, a high speed ingress was essential into the pop. The Harrier guys used to loft all sorts…back in the days when CAS guys flew low and we slung iron like grenades. Things are big-time different today, but some folks still stay sharp on the old skills. Just in case…