How can you hold altitude while refueling.
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@Red:
Although landing gains are implemented in BMS, and there’s a change in gains as the AAR door opens, I doubt what you explains is implemented in BMS? (might be wrong and the effect too subtle to be noticed, MavJp should be the one to rule this one)
If I put the throttle at idle and accelerate, the FPM will indeed stays at 1G level
if I open the AAR door, and do the same, I don’t see the FPM going up. So it’s the same behaviour.I think your install may be broken, RD. I do see the FPM rise and lower vice the nose, in landing gains.
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I doubt my install is broken
i’ll retry eventually, but the quick test (4.33.2) i made showed no significant difference.https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4ihu20k18iuf9j/DC_Hammer.jpg?dl=0
Well said
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Lot of work for not much gain, to patrol for only a half hour. I have flights in my logbook on BfB of over 3 hours wheels up to touchdown.
Unless you fly slow enough to hit the blended region, you wont see a big difference - only a few degrees. That however, is significant.
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Indeed, but aar is made at 300 kts, so that might explain why the difference is not just as high as when flying approach speed in the 140-160 region…
bottom line for me, even if enabled and i don’t detect it, it doesn’t make my life any easier in the tanker turns -
Back to the original inquiry I think on AAR I have taken fuel in climb, dive, turn and possibly the tanker did a barrel roll and I never noticed. The “frozen relative spacing” is a feeling that runs deep in the brain. When you look at the tanker there is a certain impression that is generated when it has no relative motion that isn’t intellectual but animal. Such thoughts about constant altitude shouldn’t be entertained.
AAR is a positioning problem which has a long chain of abstractions between you and the situation:
Position - this is where you are and the goal is to have a good position and to keep it there as time goes on.
Motion - motion changes position over time.
Attitude (RPM) - attitude changes velocity.
Controls - change attitude and RPM.Hopefully the link between control manipulation and airplane state (attitude, RPM) is second nature by now but it does take time for changes to evolve, especially throttle. Starting with a “second skin” type control over attitude that will determine how your speed changes, aka acceleration. This will not be as natural as the first layer of control, a side-slide will be bank to begin the slide, level to continue it, and counterbank to stop it for example. Position is by application of these velocities in a smart way. In general the smaller the positions, velocities, accelerations are the smaller the control inputs. The desire is to bracket the ideal values and shrink the bounds. There’s no way to be perfectly still in the exact position. All you can hope to do is bounce within an acceptable box and attempt to shrink the box. Get a feel for the changes you are making and try to reduce their magnitude with each reversal.
Maybe some nose down trim will help as you aren’t in the middle of the stick forces.
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I get what you are saying as I experience the same thing now frederf but that is a natural evolution or progression of skill over time.
I don’t think that it can be taught though. only learned through repetition.
But I could not have put it into words
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
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What I end up doing if AAR in the turn is to give four taps to the trim switch for nose up. It doesn’t negate the lift lost due to the 30 degree turn but it does reduce the amount of force you need to apply to hold position. It also helps if you have the trim reset programmed as well to get back to neutral after you exit the turn.
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Real jet doesnt have trim reset…
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so really, why fly BMS? I dont see your logic.
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We can fly BMS as it actually exists …. or we can fly some undefined/individual user-defined sub-set of BMS that reflects what we wish BMS to be (selective realism).
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so really, why fly BMS? I dont see your logic.
For fun, learning, or whatever reason anyone wants. He obviously likes having a trim reset, why do you care that he uses it?
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For fun, learning, or whatever reason anyone wants. He obviously likes having a trim reset, why do you care that he uses it?
Probably because we are talking about advice on how to fly the jet during an AAR knowing that, IRL, the fist principle is to not use trim when a/c is not in a stabilized path (a turn is not a stabilized path) … Using trim for AAR during turns (as a RL pilot point of view) is indeed not a good advice.
But this is true if we consider that everybody has a good force sensitive stick … which is not the case for everyone.
Yes … BMS is a PC game. We can even land upside-down on the canopy without the fear of a brutal death. Yes it we can.
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Probably because we are talking about advice on how to fly the jet during an AAR knowing that, IRL, the fist principle is to not use trim when a/c is not in a stabilized path (a turn is not a stabilized path) … Using trim for AAR during turns (as a RL pilot point of view) is indeed not a good advice.
But this is true if we consider that everybody has a good force sensitive stick … which is not the case for everyone.
Yes … BMS is a PC game. We can even land upside-down on the canopy without the fear of a brutal death. Yes it we can.
that i will have to try
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Let’s make an hypothetical point:
1. Landing gains in BMS is “somehow lacking” it’s working great at slow speed but the effect at hi speed (read AAR speed 300 kts) are undermodelled
2. Turning will decrease lift, so power needs to be applied to maintain level flight
3. by applying power, the landing gain enabled with AAR door open, are moving the FPM upward, but as said in point 1 it’s undermodelled…
4. A user says 3 tap trim nose up helps …=> Even if real life says it’s not a good advice:
Maybe the guy actually just found a solution to something that in the BMS code doesn’t work optimally?
After all trimming up a notch is about the same thing as having the landing gain FPM up with power up as described earlier in this topicIt does make a lot of sense to me
And if it’s stupid but works, it ain’t stupidReal life advice is great, but some advices - although bad IRL - may very well be valid in a computer software which is nothing more than million slines of theoric code, Real life isn’t.
It does require openmindness to see it though
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@Red:
Let’s make an hypothetical point:
1. Landing gains in BMS is “somehow lacking” it’s working great at slow speed but the effect at hi speed (read AAR speed 300 kts) are undermodelled
2. Turning will decrease lift, so power needs to be applied to maintain level flight
3. by applying power, the landing gain enabled with AAR door open, are moving the FPM upward, but as said in point 1 it’s undermodelled…
4. A user says 3 tap trim nose up helps …=> Even if real life says it’s not a good advice:
Maybe the guy actually just found a solution to something that in the BMS code doesn’t work optimally?
After all trimming up a notch is about the same thing as having the landing gain FPM up with power up as described earlier in this topicIt does make a lot of sense to me
And if it’s stupid but works, it ain’t stupidReal life advice is great, but some advices - although bad IRL - may very well be valid in a computer software which is nothing more than million slines of theoric code, Real life isn’t.
It does require openmindness to see it though
Not a open-mindedness issue. To be honest … the same exist IRL. Despite the fact that some thing should not be done in a certain way, some pilot do it anyway because: easier, more comfortable, more efficient to their eyes … etc … whatever the reasons …
Is is also true in the sim world.
Look … I was always been told not to use trims in formation flight during evolution …
Now look the PAF … they are trimming all the time! :
(pitch rate during some manoeuvres is even given by the trim itself!)Hehe … yes, because it is way different …
I know. PAF are doing display flights which are not operational flights and formation is the finality. In combat or regular flight, it is different => Formation flight is just a tool.… So we understand that it might hep some ppl in sim to use trims … especially when stick is cheap ant not an FSSB or FCC. What I mean above is that Blu3Wolf has a point: Yes of course it is a sim.
Real jet doesn’t run on a PC…
On my PC … if I set “Air Refuelling” option to “Easy” in the SETUP/REALISM … and that’s it, no need to care about a/c stability nor PIO.
… Furthermore because for sure, trimming in turns is a bad choice simply because it is more difficult to be precise on the stick when having to push it rather than having to sustain a back pressure on it … so while you will be more comfortable during the turn, the draw back will be at wings roll out to wing level and will have to trim down or push the stick (but again yes, this is just theory and some ppl might have some “bad” habits and are, at the end, more efficient by using their ways).
Another tip … when I was
, the tip was to trim the jet a little bit down so that to go down, we do not have to push the stick, but we just had to release the pressure (a bit different than on F-16 I must admit because no side stick on AlphaJet …)Try this: fly in formation with one dot trim down … , then, go back trim neutral and fly in formation inverted (trims neutral) … you will see that it is waaay easier the maintain a back pressure than having to maintain a pressure forward …
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But if I follow Rybo’s logic, I set “Air Refuelling” option to “Easy” in the SETUP/REALISM and that’s it, no need to care about a/c stability not PIO!
That’s not “my logic.” Don’t put words into my mouth. I simply meant that in a sim environment some people choose to make compromises or do things differently.
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That’s not “my logic.” Don’t put words into my mouth. I simply meant that in a sim environment some people choose to make compromises or do things differently.
Ok. Sorry for putting words into your mouth. I have edited my post above accordingly.
I simply meant that in a sim environment some people choose to make compromises or do things differently.
I understand.
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Real jet doesnt have trim reset…
Having worked on the real aircraft for 20 years I’m pretty sure I already knew that. Thanks for clarifying it for everyone else though I guess. The fact of the matter is that some things won’t be 100% because we aren’t all sitting at home with full on viper pits rigs costing redonkulous money. With that in mind small short cuts like trim reset shouldn’t be that big of a deal.
If it is to you great. Don’t use it yourself.