RWR blind spot(s), or SU-27 FCR issue?
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Hey guys,
In the past week or so, we’ve noticed a few odd experiences with the Carapace (BMS -34, p. 59-61) RWR system, and we’re not quite certain if it’s an intended feature or a bug (either in the RWR, or the adversary’s FCR modelling).
Carapace symbology:
Situation:
- Self-made TE, player vs AI
- Hosted on our own dedicated server (available bandwidth 200.000, consistent >100FPS)
- All clients BW 2048, pings below 30, no packet loss
- Players: F-16AM-BE
- AI: SU-27, AA-10A (SARH) and AA-11 (IR)
As you can see in the video, the RWR does not give any indication of STT (required for FOX 1) and even removes the 29 entirely for ±7 seconds (indicating (almost) no transmission received, let alone a lock). I haven’t uploaded it yet, but I have another video showing the same thing, where I am engaged by SU-27, go defensive, appear to break lock and get hit while I’m calling naked.
Questions:
- For obvious reasons, the real life RWR is very classified, so this question is purely about BMS: how are the RWR’s modelled? Do they have blind spots, or are they supposed to provide 360° spherical coverage? None of the manuals say anything about this. I did read that “some ambiguities have been introduced” (BMS -34, p. 48 ) but it’s written in such a way that it affects only range and bearing, not locks entirely.
- We don’t seem to experience this going up against a few other less capable FOX 1-equipped aircraft (e.g. MiG-23 and -29). When flying the SU-27 as human, FOX 1 requires STT. I assume this remains true for AI-flown SU-27?
Regards,
Eagle-Eye -
Antennas diagram is not a sphere but rather a torus.
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But if you notice in the video, the -27 was splashed 8 seconds before the first R-27 impact and 12 seconds before the second. There’s no way a SARH R-27 would have continued to track and splash OP’s -16 after being hit by that slammer. Well, I guess it’s possible the radar continued tracking even as the pilot was ejecting, but that seems odd. EDIT: It seems the lock was maintained after the slammer hit, but if you look closely, the radar lock drops seconds before the second R-27 impact, yet the missile still guided on the OP’s -16.
OP: is it possible those were R-27T models?
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Antennas diagram is not a sphere but rather a torus.
Thought as much.
Even so, however, I don’t think the threat was ever out of what would be a realistic detection angle (despite a ±60° bank), and there is still the issue of not getting an STT warning when it does detect the SU-27, or the RWR prioritising a random F-16 passing by over an STT and engaging threat.But if you notice in the video, the -27 was splashed 8 seconds before the first R-27 impact and 12 seconds before the second. There’s no way a SARH R-27 would have continued to track and splash OP’s -16 after being hit by that slammer. Well, I guess it’s possible the radar continued tracking even as the pilot was ejecting, but that seems odd.
Tacview has shown me times where AI was radar tracking an aircraft 180° behind him, so that wasn’t really new to us.
Looking closer at the ACMI, I did notice that the lock drops 3 seconds before impact of the second missile, but that missile still makes a correcting manoeuvre in the last second, which probably shouldn’t be possible. (not sure if there’s a proximity fuze that is capable of guiding the rocket?)
OP: is it possible those were R-27T models?
No, both missiles fired were R-27R (AA-10A). I just double-checked in Tacview and the TE to make sure I wasn’t telling lies.
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I do not master the Carapace.
Please read Chapter7 of the Electronic Warfare Fundamental. Especially about limitations.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ddkrejr5zpmh8h/Electronic%20Warfare%20Fundamentals.pdf?dl=0
You have also to know that a real RWR, while able to indicate a radar mode, won’t be necessarily able to do it anytime. Same alarms and launch. False alarm might exist since each features is programed specifically. Sometimes a launch alarm will be trigered by the missile/aircraft downlink … some by the specific patern that some radar beam does just before launch for refresh … sometimes could be just on a given freq or prf combinasion and could trigger a launch alarm even if no missile has been actually launched … it all depends on systems/radar/missile/mode … they are all different.Don’t take the RWR indications for granted.
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But if you notice in the video, the -27 was splashed 8 seconds before the first R-27 impact and 12 seconds before the second. There’s no way a SARH R-27 would have continued to track and splash OP’s -16 after being hit by that slammer. Well, I guess it’s possible the radar continued tracking even as the pilot was ejecting, but that seems odd. EDIT: It seems the lock was maintained after the slammer hit, but if you look closely, the radar lock drops seconds before the second R-27 impact, yet the missile still guided on the OP’s -16.
OP: is it possible those were R-27T models?
I’ll start this by saying that I haven’t watched the clip so what I’m saying might not be true in this particular case but …
It is quite possible to be hit by a SARH missile after it loses tracking. The missile will continue to fly a ballistic course, just like a really large, slow bullet. If you don’t manoeuvre and the missiles intercept solution was good then you are getting hit.
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Unguided sarh to hit a even a straight moving target is possible like a 1:100000 … 2 of them … probably never. …It is easier to score a critical hit in some real hard d&d. … or get hit by a meteor…
First try to confirm that this bug of deadly wounded platform’s radar (or out of constraints of radar cone) is still able to guide a sarh is also present in SP ?.. so we know that only MP is affected.
As for Carapace … check with other rwrs … so you’ll have the proof!.