F-16 reversal pirouette?
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for what it’s worth, you can pirouette in the f-22 in BMS, and the hornetc as seen in the video. I’ll also play with low speed high AOA steve. I find your post insightful.
i’ve had good feedback flat plating with adverse rudder in the f-16 in bms. the viper is good in the horizontal but I wouldn’t want to go over the top if I could avoid. Might even consider split S yo yos as opposed to over the top yo yos. You always want to have altitude advantage if you can in the viper. I have not had good results fighting uphill in the f-16, conversely at high angels and mach at the 20 mile mark you’re going to have a marked advantage against 4th and 5th gen because of your horizontal turn rate and weight to thrust. There is no single engine with the profile and the turn radius anywhere in the world that can win in a 2d plain against the viper and the aim120 that we know about at least.
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Thanks for the answers guys. The way I interpreted what Okie was talking about in the interview video was more a hammerhead like maneuver and reverse like this:
Not really a pirouette maneuver like the F-18 does. I’ve been playing around with slow speed handling quite a bit as well. I’ve been interested since reading in books that guys like Mugs McKeown and Hawk Monroe did reversals like this in the Phantom. And F-14 guys did it as well, but they used rudder and the asymmetrical thrust of the wide set engines pulling one throttle to idle. In this video of the F-15 at 4:50 you can see a pilot do a similar thing:
I always wondered if the F-16 had some tricks up its sleeve as well, but figured the FLCS and 25 AOA limit wouldn’t allow you to do such things. But then I saw this interview with Okie and thought maybe you can do some of that stuff.
F16N probably has some different FLCS with relaxed stability
try with MPO engaged
you have to try it high enough as well since 150kts means nothing without altitude but i think he was doing it pretty high
Thanks, that’s possible indeed that the F-16N has a different FLCS since it was a special F-16 variant.
I tried it again yesterday with the MPO engaged and at different altitudes between 15.000 ft and 30.000 ft. But still no luck. It did nose over more quickly, but couldn’t get it to pirouette. But I still could’ve been doing it wrong of course. I’m by no means an expert.
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try maybe a vertical roll into the hammerhead by kicking lateral. You might be able to build up enough angular velocity and get some horizontal delta that will allow you to hammerhead.
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for what it’s worth, you can pirouette in the f-22 in BMS, and the hornetc as seen in the video. I’ll also play with low speed high AOA steve. I find your post insightful.
i’ve had good feedback flat plating with adverse rudder in the f-16 in bms. the viper is good in the horizontal but I wouldn’t want to go over the top if I could avoid. Might even consider split S yo yos as opposed to over the top yo yos. You always want to have altitude advantage if you can in the viper. I have not had good results fighting uphill in the f-16, conversely at high angels and mach at the 20 mile mark you’re going to have a marked advantage against 4th and 5th gen because of your horizontal turn rate and weight to thrust. There is no single engine with the profile and the turn radius anywhere in the world that can win in a 2d plain against the viper and the aim120 that we know about at least.
I have to concur with this…I’ve found the same. Which is why I prefer to low yo yo if I have the room.
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try maybe a vertical roll into the hammerhead by kicking lateral. You might be able to build up enough angular velocity and get some horizontal delta that will allow you to hammerhead.
Let us know if you can do it. Im fairly sure its covered under ‘stuff the designers dont want you to do’ and under ‘stuff the designers tried really hard to prevent you from doing’ in the name of keeping the aircraft in a controllable condition.
Would be interesting to see if you can find a flaw in their FLCS protections
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I have some history breaking things the skunks built, alamogordo says hello, here’s trying.
f-14 has same basic design protection by engineering the airflow to buffett around the edges of the flight window. With a little focus I think it’s possible. When I was flying a lot of Su-27 i was doing tail slides for practice, I vaguely remember pulling a hammerhead. The f-16 has a very strict roll behavior, it’s built well, it doesn’t want to be a flaming pile, but where there is a will there is a way.
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Let us know if you can do it. Im fairly sure its covered under ‘stuff the designers dont want you to do’ and under ‘stuff the designers tried really hard to prevent you from doing’ in the name of keeping the aircraft in a controllable condition.
Would be interesting to see if you can find a flaw in their FLCS protections
…which is another point my my continual “the book ain’t the end-all” comments…bang on the nose.
I’ve tried hammerheads and found that you can’t really do those very crisply either. The issue being that you don’t have enough rudder to get a crisp hammer head, and again the limiter hampers you in reaching/sustaining the vertical when you really need it. You also begin to lose some roll authority on the stick, if I recall…it’s been a while since I’ve played around with this. I also seem to recall that if you lead maneuvers that sometimes you can use the jet’s body inertias to “finish”, but it takes some real practice to be able to use that consistently.
You can generate a departure trying a hammerhead, though…if you really push trying. But what I have found is that controlling yaw induced roll at low speed isn’t really as difficult as some would have you believe, IF you ignore “conventional wisdom” about what people have to say about the ARI and FLCS washout(s). Rudder does work where I’d like it to work…it just doesn’t work to the extent I’d like it to work.
I’m sure there is some way to get the jet to reverse in a hurry…I’m thinking I just haven’t found it yet.
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keep cranking. we come up with new math using the same 9 digits all the time.
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It looks like the F35 can do its version of a pirouette also (though I don’t agree with the comments at the end of the video … seems like the F18 does a nice pirouette without thrust vectoring).
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I don’t know anything about F-35 flight controls, but I suspect that the F-35 is not AOA limited like the F-16 is…and that the twin rudders help. Much.
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without getting into the weeds. The f-35 has a reaction control system which uses compressed air to add super maneuverability in some aspects of flight, as well as to balance the aircraft. The f35 is covered with over 1000 points of thrust, it also carries a small amount of reaction thruster propellant. You didn’t hear it from me though
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I don’t know anything about F-35 flight controls, but I suspect that the F-35 is not AOA limited like the F-16 is…and that the twin rudders help. Much.
Will allow Max 50 degrees AoA in A-A config (Lockheed M)
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I DO know that only the V/STOL F-35B model (got to look over one of those once) has reaction controls - not the USAF or USN jets…so it’s not a factor in/for this discussion. Not to mention that if it operates like the Harrier RCS it only operates in the V/STOL flight regime not up and away.
Which now makes me wonder if an F-35B can drop nozzles at any point in forward flight like a Harrier - known as “VIFF”-ing; Vector In Forward Flight. Which also has far less tactical application than one might think…
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I DO know that only the V/STOL F-35B model (got to look over one of those once) has reaction controls - not the USAF or USN jets…so it’s not a factor in/for this discussion. Not to mention that if it operates like the Harrier RCS it only operates in the V/STOL flight regime not up and away.
Which now makes me wonder if an F-35B can drop nozzles at any point in forward flight like a Harrier - known as “VIFF”-ing; Vector In Forward Flight. Which also has far less tactical application than one might think…
thats not correct. Look up luke airforce base unrestricted maneuvers f35a panther demo team. that’s just the beginning.
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I don’t trust anyone’s ability to gather data from the public sector so I’ll just leave this here.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BsdJQSCHbqf/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_medium=loading
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meanwhile at the skunkwerks
“jimmy pour some more 115 on this magnetic coil and back up a bit”
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Beautiful, pure aero.
I always look at TVC as ‘cheating’ to be honest (I use that term loosely of course).
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thats not correct. Look up luke airforce base unrestricted maneuvers f35a panther demo team. that’s just the beginning.
I’m not saying it can’t do the maneuver - I’m saying it doesn’t have an RCS. Only the B model has reaction controls.
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Beautiful, pure aero.
I always look at TVC as ‘cheating’ to be honest (I use that term loosely of course).
I see a lot of comments that this actually is TVC but that would be weird for a USAF F35A wouldn’t it?
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@TwanV:
I see a lot of comments that this actually is TVC but that would be weird for a USAF F35A wouldn’t it?
Yes, it would actually be very weird of all models.