F-16 reversal pirouette?
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try maybe a vertical roll into the hammerhead by kicking lateral. You might be able to build up enough angular velocity and get some horizontal delta that will allow you to hammerhead.
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for what it’s worth, you can pirouette in the f-22 in BMS, and the hornetc as seen in the video. I’ll also play with low speed high AOA steve. I find your post insightful.
i’ve had good feedback flat plating with adverse rudder in the f-16 in bms. the viper is good in the horizontal but I wouldn’t want to go over the top if I could avoid. Might even consider split S yo yos as opposed to over the top yo yos. You always want to have altitude advantage if you can in the viper. I have not had good results fighting uphill in the f-16, conversely at high angels and mach at the 20 mile mark you’re going to have a marked advantage against 4th and 5th gen because of your horizontal turn rate and weight to thrust. There is no single engine with the profile and the turn radius anywhere in the world that can win in a 2d plain against the viper and the aim120 that we know about at least.
I have to concur with this…I’ve found the same. Which is why I prefer to low yo yo if I have the room.
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try maybe a vertical roll into the hammerhead by kicking lateral. You might be able to build up enough angular velocity and get some horizontal delta that will allow you to hammerhead.
Let us know if you can do it. Im fairly sure its covered under ‘stuff the designers dont want you to do’ and under ‘stuff the designers tried really hard to prevent you from doing’ in the name of keeping the aircraft in a controllable condition.
Would be interesting to see if you can find a flaw in their FLCS protections
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I have some history breaking things the skunks built, alamogordo says hello, here’s trying.
f-14 has same basic design protection by engineering the airflow to buffett around the edges of the flight window. With a little focus I think it’s possible. When I was flying a lot of Su-27 i was doing tail slides for practice, I vaguely remember pulling a hammerhead. The f-16 has a very strict roll behavior, it’s built well, it doesn’t want to be a flaming pile, but where there is a will there is a way.
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Let us know if you can do it. Im fairly sure its covered under ‘stuff the designers dont want you to do’ and under ‘stuff the designers tried really hard to prevent you from doing’ in the name of keeping the aircraft in a controllable condition.
Would be interesting to see if you can find a flaw in their FLCS protections
…which is another point my my continual “the book ain’t the end-all” comments…bang on the nose.
I’ve tried hammerheads and found that you can’t really do those very crisply either. The issue being that you don’t have enough rudder to get a crisp hammer head, and again the limiter hampers you in reaching/sustaining the vertical when you really need it. You also begin to lose some roll authority on the stick, if I recall…it’s been a while since I’ve played around with this. I also seem to recall that if you lead maneuvers that sometimes you can use the jet’s body inertias to “finish”, but it takes some real practice to be able to use that consistently.
You can generate a departure trying a hammerhead, though…if you really push trying. But what I have found is that controlling yaw induced roll at low speed isn’t really as difficult as some would have you believe, IF you ignore “conventional wisdom” about what people have to say about the ARI and FLCS washout(s). Rudder does work where I’d like it to work…it just doesn’t work to the extent I’d like it to work.
I’m sure there is some way to get the jet to reverse in a hurry…I’m thinking I just haven’t found it yet.
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keep cranking. we come up with new math using the same 9 digits all the time.
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It looks like the F35 can do its version of a pirouette also (though I don’t agree with the comments at the end of the video … seems like the F18 does a nice pirouette without thrust vectoring).
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I don’t know anything about F-35 flight controls, but I suspect that the F-35 is not AOA limited like the F-16 is…and that the twin rudders help. Much.
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without getting into the weeds. The f-35 has a reaction control system which uses compressed air to add super maneuverability in some aspects of flight, as well as to balance the aircraft. The f35 is covered with over 1000 points of thrust, it also carries a small amount of reaction thruster propellant. You didn’t hear it from me though
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I don’t know anything about F-35 flight controls, but I suspect that the F-35 is not AOA limited like the F-16 is…and that the twin rudders help. Much.
Will allow Max 50 degrees AoA in A-A config (Lockheed M)
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I DO know that only the V/STOL F-35B model (got to look over one of those once) has reaction controls - not the USAF or USN jets…so it’s not a factor in/for this discussion. Not to mention that if it operates like the Harrier RCS it only operates in the V/STOL flight regime not up and away.
Which now makes me wonder if an F-35B can drop nozzles at any point in forward flight like a Harrier - known as “VIFF”-ing; Vector In Forward Flight. Which also has far less tactical application than one might think…
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I DO know that only the V/STOL F-35B model (got to look over one of those once) has reaction controls - not the USAF or USN jets…so it’s not a factor in/for this discussion. Not to mention that if it operates like the Harrier RCS it only operates in the V/STOL flight regime not up and away.
Which now makes me wonder if an F-35B can drop nozzles at any point in forward flight like a Harrier - known as “VIFF”-ing; Vector In Forward Flight. Which also has far less tactical application than one might think…
thats not correct. Look up luke airforce base unrestricted maneuvers f35a panther demo team. that’s just the beginning.
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I don’t trust anyone’s ability to gather data from the public sector so I’ll just leave this here.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BsdJQSCHbqf/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_medium=loading
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meanwhile at the skunkwerks
“jimmy pour some more 115 on this magnetic coil and back up a bit”
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Beautiful, pure aero.
I always look at TVC as ‘cheating’ to be honest (I use that term loosely of course).
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thats not correct. Look up luke airforce base unrestricted maneuvers f35a panther demo team. that’s just the beginning.
I’m not saying it can’t do the maneuver - I’m saying it doesn’t have an RCS. Only the B model has reaction controls.
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Beautiful, pure aero.
I always look at TVC as ‘cheating’ to be honest (I use that term loosely of course).
I see a lot of comments that this actually is TVC but that would be weird for a USAF F35A wouldn’t it?
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@TwanV:
I see a lot of comments that this actually is TVC but that would be weird for a USAF F35A wouldn’t it?
Yes, it would actually be very weird of all models.
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I have some history breaking things the skunks built, here’s trying.
The skunks (assuming you are referring to the (in)famous Skunkworks did not build the F-16, to be fair. Its LM now, but it was GD that built it.
f-14 has same basic design protection by engineering the airflow to buffett around the edges of the flight window. With a little focus I think it’s possible.
As I said, I wish you luck. Have you had any, as yet?
This would be the first Id heard of the F-14 having the same design(s) as the F-16. I guess they both have two wings and three wheels, though.
The f-16 has a very strict roll behavior, it’s built well, but where there is a will there is a way.
It is indeed pretty strict. Id recommend starting your efforts looking into the theory behind it, but I doubt that recommendation will be heeded. So instead Id love to see video of your efforts
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Hi Bluewolf,
what I was referring to within the design philosophy of the tomcat was the doctrine gruman took around departures. To expound on it here would muddy the waters, but in short, the aircraft was designed to buffett and level itself out much like an FLCS would do however this was simply done with the geometry of the airframe, and somewhat to a fault as can be observed in the inverted behaviors of the vertical stabilizer being blocked from airflow. this was considered a design balance for safety.
My lineal procession through this “hobby” comes from an industrial interest, and that is all I will say. To the point at hand, I will not waist my aging wrist doing the public disclosure dance but if you disbelieve your own eyes, so be it. I’ll simply wait for the pilots and the youtube videos to create the preponderance of evidence in the public sphere.
At very low speeds the viper is useless, I do not envisage the pirouette being something you would want to rely on, I wouldn’t want to get into an energy fight in the vertical in the viper, the horizontal is the place to win. I’ve had some luck with a tail slide but as far as an out and out hammerhead I don’t think it is in the cards. In the threat environment of twin engine and thrust to weight much greater than the viper to pull into the vertical in a gun fight would be an eventual losing decision unless you have a solution available immediately. the rolling scissor and the low yo yo seem to be the best bet, even further in that if someone tries to crank with you into the split they are going to come up snake eyes on energy and cannot out turn the viper.
I’ve only been caught slipping once in my BMS flying career by a su-27 all by his lonesome came in high on my five oclock I saw him shooting over my canopy, I just used a scissor reversal in the horizontal and he was dead in one turn. If you always fight down hill and use your AWACS you should never get caught out. As I fly i test the rudder response of the aircraft and as expected it quickly just ellopes rudder input into roll programs, thats the FLCS. with one vertical stabilizer and one point of specific impulse and that type of roll authority I do not foresee much usefulness or success in that type of maneuver.
For certain, to see the f35 performing above public expectation will be an ongoing trend as the years pass by. You always tell everyone your sword is blunt, underestimation is a weapon.