Combine Warthog stick and Cougar throttle
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There are couple of things to keep in mind if u want to do this. First, The cougar throttle has to be plugged into the cougar joystick to work. Unless you buy a USB adapter called tusba. http://realsimulator.com/html/tusba.html
BMS will recognize the warthog stick and the default cougar or the tusba and allow you to bind functions to them, however on the secondary controller you will lose hat functions. So part of your device will not work. This quirk is why profiles like morphine’s rely on the target software. It combines both devices into 1 virtual device so that all the buttons on the hotas can be used. If you want all the buttons to work then you will have to use software.
If you use the cougar and the warthog stick you can make use of target. You will have to make your own script for that. However if you go with the tusba you will not be able to combine the throttle and joystick via target. You will need another piece of software. I would recommend Joystick Gremlin. Again you will have to make a custom profile, but joystick Gremlin is a bit easier to deal with than target. So there you go you have about 3 ways to do this. Let us know how it works out for you.
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Thx Marvin157th, but I meant it as Gastone interpreted it.
And thx Gastone, I will have to study your options Let’s check whether I understood them correctly.
1. Use both Cougar bases and as Marvin157th suggested, I could put the Warthog stick on the Cougar base. That is not my preferred solution, since my Cougar stick base probably has a defect.
2. Using a Tusba, the Cougar throttle is the secondary controller, right?? Can you be more specific on the functions I will lose from the throttle plse.
3. Combining Warthog stick and Cougar throttle requires Joystick Gremlin and a custom profile. Since I have no in-depth knowledge of profile building, I am just a ‘quick and dirty’ customizer. So, not a attractive option as well. Unless Gremlin profiles like Morphine/Gastone are available somewhere. Do you have insight in this ??
So and as usual, all options have pros and cons Based on your future answers I probably can do a down-select.
Many thx, Cheers Vordy
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Honestly, the best solution these days are to just get rid of the cougar software and guts all together. Purchase some Leo Bodnar joystick device boards and wire your switches directly to that. Its quite easy as this is how I did my real throttle and stick. It just becomes a simple joystick device in windows and you are not messing with 14 year old software.
The downside is you can’t really program your buttons for multi-functions. But I do believe there is some third party software to do that, but not 100% sure.
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you could also look into vjoy and “joystick gremlin”, a forum search here should get you going.
All the best, Uwe
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Honestly, the best solution these days are to just get rid of the cougar software and guts all together.
You might be right Marvin157th, Cougars are outdated stuff and cannot even be bought these days anymore.
But … quite a lot vpilots still use the good old Cougar without any problems.
And … I prefer the Cougar, since it is a F-16 replica and I only fly BMS F-16’s. WH is technically more advanced, but flying a F-16 with a A-10 throttle is like steering a car with a joystick -
I have three Cougar TQSs and did a Bodner conversion on one of them - it’s not hard, and it also makes the TQS usable with either a Mac or a PC. It also gets you 12 bit sampling vice 10, with is really an improvement.
If one wanted to go all out, one could replace the guts in each with a Pokeys 57U card, and then use PoBlocks to program layered/multi function into each.
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@Vordy87th:
You might be right Marvin157th, Cougars are outdated stuff and cannot even be bought these days anymore.
But … quite a lot vpilots still use the good old Cougar without any problems.
And … I prefer the Cougar, since it is a F-16 replica and I only fly BMS F-16’s. WH is technically more advanced, but flying a F-16 with a A-10 throttle is like steering a car with a joystickAbsolutely… In my opinion the best setup is Cougar Throttle and Warthog stick along with an FCC3 or FSSB3 etc. The Warthog stick is WAY better than the old cougar stick and closer resembles an F-16 stick. As a matter of fact when I put the warthog stick beside my real F-16 stick you can barely tell the difference.
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Absolutely… In my opinion the best setup is Cougar Throttle and Warthog stick along with an FCC3 or FSSB3 etc. The Warthog stick is WAY better than the old cougar stick and closer resembles an F-16 stick. As a matter of fact when I put the warthog stick beside my real F-16 stick you can barely tell the difference.
Second!
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Absolutely… In my opinion the best setup is Cougar Throttle and Warthog stick along with an FCC3 or FSSB3 etc. The Warthog stick is WAY better than the old cougar stick and closer resembles an F-16 stick. As a matter of fact when I put the warthog stick beside my real F-16 stick you can barely tell the difference.
If possible, I certainly would go for that. Gastone explained that a Tusba is needed and also quite some programming in Gremlin, correct?? Since I’m not a skilled programmer, I also would need a ready profile. Are BMS F-16 Gremlin profiles available somewhere??
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I also have a Warthog/TUSBA setup…no programming required - just use the BMS assignment interface and the TUSBA config software for your TQS. Pretty much plug and play.
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Thx Stevie, getting closer and closer to the optimal solution here. Can you plse be a bit more specific. Are you saying that it’s possible to load any BMS keyfile and profile??
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I am using my Cougar throttle and a Warthog stick. My blog (here on the BMS forum “blog” section) shows how I’m doing it.
As my still-incomplete blog entries show, I am very unsophisticated in my knowledge, and am doing it the “crude” way, just plugging my Cougar TQS / SSC into my computer (that’s one USB connection) AND my Warthog SSC only into my computer (that’s a second USB connection). I am able to get the throttle functionality from my Cougar throttle, and the joystick functionality from my Warthog stick. Buttons, hat switches, etc…, seem to do “what they would really do” in the F-16.
However, due to my lack of knowledge, I am probably losing out on the benefits of things like the TUSBA. I might get a greater range of input values from my throttle, for example, if I could figure out how to properly use my TUSBA. I’ve just been too dense / busy / lazy to properly understand all of the digital incantations and sorcery needed to make things like that work. But one day I’ll get it sorted. For now I’m just glad I have the “authentic” TQS and SSC, and I like the Warthog stick better than the older Cougar stick.
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I might get a greater range of input values from my throttle, for example, if I could figure out how to properly use my TUSBA.
That’s the lack of throttle functionality as Gastone described above, I assume ?!
You installed both Cougar and Warthog drivers ??
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@Vordy87th:
Thx Stevie, getting closer and closer to the optimal solution here. Can you plse be a bit more specific. Are you saying that it’s possible to load any BMS keyfile and profile??
In a roundabout way - you still have to assign the key bindings for specific controllers; if you have one . What I do is to use the BMS Setup interface itself and save individual Setup files for each controller. I’m only beginning to use Keyfile Editor, so I can’t say I’m as familiar with how that works. Of course, as long as you are using an unmodded Warthog stick you can also always still use TARGET for setting it up for layers, shifts, etc.
Setting up the TUSBA is also very straightforward - the biggest benefit being that TUSBA Setup also provides key setup for functions, and most importantly the Cancel MRM/SRM command when that switch is centered. I can’t recommend the TUSBA enough - very nice little add-on for getting the TQS working on it’s own!
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@Vordy87th:
That’s the lack of throttle functionality as Gastone described above, I assume ?!
You installed both Cougar and Warthog drivers ??
There are two pieces to the TUSBA puzzle - the Setup Tool, and firmware. I’ve found that certain firmware has worked better or worse in certain setups…and that the folks at RealSim are very responsive in making corrections or providing support if you email them.
Also - there is an option in the Setup Tool for sim builders that accounts for the actual sub-idle cutoff position of a real throttle arm. I have to suspect that people aren’t getting “full travel” with their TUSBA equipped TQSs because they have this option selected in the calibration in TUSBA Setup. May want to check that.
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Here’s what I was referring to when I said “I might get a greater range of input values from my throttle, for example, if I could figure out how to properly use my TUSBA.” … keep in mind, though, that I am not very confident of what I am about to say. It’s speculation based on something I think I recall reading here on the forum once… I am quite happy to stand corrected if I have this wrong:
By “range of input values from my throttle”, what I mean is something like the concept of “bit depth” in digital photography. For example, I might take a picture with a camera that reports the brightness value from each of the detector’s pixels in a range from 0-255 `brightness units’. 0 is black, 255 is as bright white as the (monitor, printer, whatever) can display. That range of numbers is 256 = 2^8, thus “8 bits”. If I get a better camera, it might be a “16-bit” camera, and the files it creates could have pixel brightness ranges that vary from 0 to 65,535. 65,536 = 2^16, so it’s a “16-bit” image.
This greater bit depth comes from a combination of the capabilities of the sensor chip itself, as well as some associated circuitry called the analog-digital converter. That package of technology determines the “bit depth” of the camera.
Now here’s where I may really be going off the deep end - apologies if I’m quite wrong in applying that analogy to flight sim throttles and joysticks…
I assume that a device like the throttle potentiometer in my Cougar TQS varies some parameter of an electric current, such as the amount of current (amperes) or the voltage of the current (volts). And I assume that a potentiometer can vary that parameter in a more-or-less continuous way, over some range. I further assume (perhaps wrongly) that a HOTAS like the Cougar or Warthog has something akin to an analog-digital converter in it, or that perhaps such a function is handled in my computer. Thus, if I’m right, BMS is seeing a number that tells it what my throttle setting currently is. If that number could only vary from 0 to 1 (“1-bit”), then the throttle could only be fully on or fully off. But if it can vary over a large range of numbers, with the top of that range representing max afterburner and the 0 representing engine cutoff, then I could vary the thrust of my virtual engine very delicately, such as for aerial refueling. There would be other issues, such as stiction in the mechanism of how the throttle rotates, and in the range of current/voltage/whatever covered by the potentiometer.
I have a vague memory of reading that if I use a TUSBA to connect my Cougar TQS to my computer, it’s doing a "higher-bit-depth’ conversion from analog to digital. I could be totally wrong about that, and I don’t remember where I “read” that, if I really read it at all. But if I’m partially correct, then that would be a reason for me to get my head out of my nether regions and figure out how to make my TUSBA function correctly. It might give me more delicate control over my virtual Viper’s engine.
… If I’m even correct about any of what I just said… and I might not be…
I think one reason I’ve been so slow to learn about the details of HOTAS programming is because of my obsession with “making my HOTAS do exactly what it would do in the real aircraft”. For that, at present, it seems like I have pretty much achieved that just by using the Setup->Controllers options in the sim, along with the Cougar Control Program. Lots of people clearly like to use programs like Foxy or Target to make their HOTAS’s do lots of other things. I’m not criticizing that at all, I have no reason to. Those users have clearly found lots of good reasons to want to make their HOTAS controls do all sorts of useful things.
But, with my “obsessed with reality” mind, I got to the point where my HOTAS seemed to “do what the real plane’s controls do” and basically stopped there. I am probably missing out on a whole world of useful functionality, and perhaps better control over the virtual aircraft, but my mind has just kind of blanked out. I try to understand Target, or profiles, or key bindings, and I just turn into one of the ape-men from “2001”, staring at the monolith XD Mostly I’m afraid I’ll disrupt my fragile “realism” (notice the quotes there) if I go beyond what I’ve done.
Buuuut… if there’s any truth to my half-baked ideas about “bit depth”, then there’s still a good reason to try and go farther!
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…so, in this instance the TUSBA replaces the Cougar 10 bit resolution board with a 12 bit resolution interface. Yes, it’s a noticeable improvement.
Bodner conversion does this too.
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Mylonite470, I’ve read your comments above a couple of times. But to be honest, I’ve no clue what you are trying to say. I’m afraid they are a bit off-topic. It’s also possible that my bit-depth-insights are missing your point completely
I’ve started this thread with a simple straight forward question: Is it possible to combine a Warthog stick and a Cougar throttle?? I have no idea how your comments can help to answer this question.
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I’m sorry I was off-topic.
Edit: Actually, I think I should elaborate a bit.
First, if I wasted your time (or anyone else’s) with my post, I really am sorry. To do something like that wasn’t my intention.
I think this thread has shown that there are at least two ways to use a Cougar throttle and a Warthog stick. My post, along with my blog entries about how I’ve done it, are an attempt to say, in effect: “If anyone as clueless as me can get a [Cougar throttle + Warthog stick] combination working, then I think that proves it’s possible.”
To summarize that method briefly: Get a used Cougar throttle and stick. Plug the stick into a USB port on your computer. The throttle plugs into the base of the stick. Leave the stick on the floor, and put the throttle on your desk or in a simpit. Also get a Warthog stick (without throttle). Plug that into another USB port on your computer. Use the Cougar Control Panel program (CCP) as shown in my blog entries. Now you have a Cougar throttle working along with a Warthog stick. Also, using only the “Setup” menu in BMS, and with no need for additional programs like Foxy or Target, you can get essentially all of the hats and switches on your throttle and stick to do what they do in the real F-16.
A brief digression, but I really do have a point here, and am not trying to go off-topic: I should probably elaborate on what I meant by “clueless” in a previous paragraph. I meant simply that I don’t have any background in computer programming or electronics. There are a lot of modern hobbies where it would be really helpful to have a background in things like electrical engineering and/or computer science. One of my other hobbies is like that - astrophotography. Having an “EECS” degree would be really helpful there, but I’ve blundered along without one and gotten a few pictures of deep-sky objects regardless.
Flight sim strikes me as another such hobby, especially when it comes to the peripherals like throttles and joysticks. I am “clueless” in that I find things like keyfiles, profiles, key bindings, Target, and such things confusing and intimidating. However - and this is part of what I was trying to communicate in my previous post - even someone who gets confused as easily as I do can still use a Cougar throttle and a Warthog stick.
The reason I talked about “bit depth” is because I was trying to add to what other people had pointed out - namely, that you can remove the Cougar stick from your setup completely, if you use a kind of adapter called a TUSBA, sold by a guy in Spain. I bought one, and I think it probably works fine, but I haven’t been able to figure out the software to get it work yet. (There’s that confusion and intimidation in the face of hardware and software again.) Although all of that stuff about powers of two, and bit depth may have seemed irrelevant - and I can see why it would - I was attempting to explain WHY a person would want to use a TUSBA.
Just to pause and step back for a second here… The crude method for using a full Cougar HOTAS and a Warthog stick, which I described above, does work. But the TUSBA method is a little more elegant, because it eliminates the need for a Cougar stick.
And - getting back to the point of my bit-depth story - there is probably a good reason why people use the TUSBA instead of a Cougar stick. To the best of my knowledge, it will give you a finer, more precise degree of control over the throttle in the sim.
I wanted to try and explain how the TUSBA does this. I thought I knew, and I decided to give a try at an explanation. If I’m wrong, people will correct me, and we’ll all learn more about how these systems work. If I’m right, then you (and others) will know why a TUSBA is a better way to use a [Cougar + Warthog combination] than the way I currently do it.
I’ve very sorry if I seemed to be going off on an irrelevant tangent. I just wanted to try and explain the reason why the TUSBA method is probably better than the “crude” method, even though I haven’t gotten the TUSBA method to work yet. I didn’t mean to give the appearance of going off on an irrelevant tangent, I just wanted to try and use an analogy to explain the point.
I hope you do get a Cougar throttle and Warthog stick to work together. I managed to, and it has been a lot of fun for me. I am taking forever to learn the sim, I mostly just practice ramp starts and landings, and do dogfights against the AI, but it’s the most fun I’ve ever had with a computer I think having “F-16 realistic” controls adds to the enjoyment, at least for me, and I hope you get the same enjoyment.
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Your answer is quite clear now, thx Mylonite470.
In short, 2 solutions:
1. Quick and dirty, plug in both sticks + Cougar throttle, use BMS Setup to program buttons/hats. I believe you use Cougar stick as a Tusba here
2. Apply a Tusba adaptor, but the software is complex. Btw … ‘the guy in Spain’ is a company ;-).I preferably go for option 2. And with the support of RealSimulator or this Forum, it must be possible to get the Tusba software to work.
My only question left: are flight-ready profiles for this combi available on this Forum?? Like Gastone’s WH profile.