AIM-9X Performance
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Its highly dependent on range and aspect and is easier with pyrophoric flares, if you reference this doc:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4783/4ec45f24453d1263b94f633aa6e6bc7e2387.pdf
They go into this in the latter half of the paper, essentially to sum up it can cause a miss but:
range is key.
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The smoke would have no impact even on the older FM seekers so I don’t exactly see how this matters at all? The 9X would still be able to filter out the flares and track the target.
the 9X is so good that you dont even have to fire it , enemy would eject as soon as they see on their RWR a AIM9X capable AC
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the 9X is so good that you dont even have to fire it , enemy would eject as soon as they see something on their RWR
I mean there is a reason for the 9XBLKII’s full 360° firing area… a normal dogfight between two HOBS and FPA equipped jets essentially boils down to who fires first and if the second guy can get a shot off. So if you can just blow through the merge or fire behind you and don’t have to do the whole who can fire first dance you will win pretty much every time. Hence why BVR, stealth, and Sensor integration are becoming ever more important. I think a quote from a fighter pilot was that if you get within 10mi you’ve F* up.
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I mean there is a reason for the 9XBLKII’s full 360° firing area… a normal dogfight between two HOBS and FPA equipped jets essentially boils down to who fires first and if the second guy can get a shot off. So if you can just blow through the merge or fire behind you and don’t have to do the whole who can fire first dance you will win pretty much every time. Hence why BVR, stealth, and Sensor integration are becoming ever more important. I think a quote from a fighter pilot was that if you get within 10mi you’ve F* up.
in any case you would have been hit by a meteor far before
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in any case you would have been hit by a meteor far before
Agreed not that that matters for the what this thread is about.
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So, if i get this right, it is possible to create an “instant” 360 degree bubble of pyrophoric flares, launched aft-forward-up-down-left-right, behind AND ahead of the jet to travel with it for a while. That sounds to me like complete block of LOS, no matter the angle. If that holds true, no IIR seeker will be able to see the target in order to differentiate it from flares. And someone mentioned the seeker being able to see through smoke. Multi spectral smoke exists for a long time now…Ask a tanker. None of the few documents i’ve read about iir flare rejection have examined such a scenario. Makes sense too…
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Well were getting into the realm of whats not possible yet (so I guess my point of the 9X being pretty much immune to flares is sticking ). But yes if you could get the pyrophoric flares effect to follow you that could be effective but you risk the missile passing through the cloud into proxy fuze range of your jet. Also keep in mind the actual filaments that oxidize to produce the IR energy will almost instantaneously decelerate when they fall of the main body of the flare (its how they get the large IR source). So the cloud effect wouldn’t probably be as large as in the simulations from the doc from earlier it would probably be more of a cone shape expanding outwards instead of the “cloud” shown in the doc.
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“you risk the missile passing through the cloud into proxy fuze range of your jet”
Makes sense but better that than been 100% hit (which is your point). Also I disagree with this being in the realm of non existent tech. We clearly see flares shot straight ahead like missiles. If that’s the case, you can create any patter shape and form you like. If we can come up with it after a short discussion, you bet airforces are way ahead…
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@Master:
If we can come up with it after a short discussion, you bet airforces are way ahead…
Discussions are free. Real-world implementation of fairy tales requires copious amounts of research, engineering, production, testing, and most of all: $$$$.
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I like how the goalposts of this discussion have shifted from “can a flare defeat the 9x” to “but look! it could be defeated by obsurcation from a smoke counter measure”
incidently, it was stated several times early in this thread that obscuration can defeat a 9x the same way flying behind a mountain can. Or using your wingman as a flare.
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The “goalposts”? There’s no goal here.
There would be a goal, but the participants have differences of opinion which are axiomatic in nature. This is why the discussion is circular…
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The “goalposts”? There’s no goal here.
There would be a goal, but the participants have differences of opinion which are axiomatic in nature. This is why the discussion is circular…
Its not a circular argument without goalposts, one side is saying that the current AIM-9X is fine cause Vietnam/history. While were trying to argue with all the technical information available right now. Over the course of this thread it’s moved away from Vietnam to well it can be decoyed by this special flare release sequence that is not in use. Which would still really only be effective if deployed when the AIM-9X is close.
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The “goalposts”? There’s no goal here.
There would be a goal, but the participants have differences of opinion which are axiomatic in nature. This is why the discussion is circular…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
This discussion is not axiomatic in nature. It is factual. The discussion is circular because of one end of the argument holds the position that you can substitute irrelevant historical statistics as if they were physics themselves, instead of discussing the actual technical details of the issue.
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You’ve been given valid explanations of why something works the way it does, which you disregard because it doesn’t meet your starting axioms, of “the AIM-9X is perfect and can tell whether inbound RF is aircraft or flare, and can never be decoyed or blocked”.
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You’ve been given valid explanations of why something works the way it does
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which you disregard because it doesn’t meet your starting axioms
I think you have this backwards… We never said that it can’t be decoyed, rather with just pyrotechnics (the only flare type in BMS right now) it is essentially impossible. With the later discussions that moved too also including pyrophoric flares we never said it was impossible for this flare type to beat the 9X just highly improbable and requires the missile to be in a specific spot/range.
“the AIM-9X is perfect and can tell whether inbound RF is aircraft or flare, and can never be decoyed or blocked”.
Yes the 9X can tell if its an aircraft or flare due to IR energy distribution and shape alone.
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Discussions are free. Real-world implementation of fairy tales requires copious amounts of research, engineering, production, testing, and most of all: $$$$.
So, launching thrusted pyrophoric flares (which exist), that produce multispectral smoke (which exists), in a 360 bubble (that part does not exist) is a fairy tale. Well, we clearly have different definitions of the term “fairy tale”. Lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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@Master:
So, launching thrusted pyrophoric flares (which exist), that produce multispectral smoke (which exists), in a 360 bubble (that part does not exist) is a fairy tale. Well, we clearly have different definitions of the term “fairy tale”. Lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Why take it so personally? The proposed technology does not exist. In order for it to exist, it will require all of those things I mentioned.
Everything’s a fairy tale until such a time as it might be invented. If you’re offended by the term, that’s on you.
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Why take it so personally? The proposed technology does not exist. In order for it to exist, it will require all of those things I mentioned.
Everything’s a fairy tale until such a time as it might be invented. If you’re offended by the term, that’s on you.
Honestly, no offense was taken. We couldn’t disagree more however.
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On a side note, (and no, this is not moving the goalpost again, just for discussions worth) i read somewhere that the pakfa had an DIRCM developed for it (if that plane ever sees the light) and then i remembered an article in aviation week along time now that claimed a DIRCM was being proposed for the f-35. Are there any news on fighter jet sized DIRCM’s?