Landing advice from a rookie perspective. Don't listen to your Dad (Papi)
-
NO I DID NOT ASK FOR IT! You can disagree on my ideas, as I am just learning, but I think to say “Sorry to be harsh, but you asked for it”, is just wrong!
My advice on PAPI was based on advice from that landing practice thread, where people with a lot more experience than me said to ignore the PAPI. And the advice was geared toward rookies like me that keep struggling with that training mission. Now you can disagree with my ideas, and correct my mistakes, but to say that I asked for it when I am taking advice from vets, and I am landing successfully, well, I just think it is wrong! Advice and disagreement are fine, especially when many of us are just learning, but that “Sorry to be harsh but you asked for it” is just not right. I have always been respectful in the forums, and I have never asked for disrespect from you, Canuck, or anyone.
Sorry to others, but that just ticked me off.
Do as you like.
-
PAPI are useful when pilot aims the “Aiming Point Markings” to touch on “Touchdown zone” (the case for commercial pilots) … Fighter pilots (at least in the countries I knows) are rather used to
and touch rather close to runway entry (runway landing distance is always considered as factor)… hence, PAPI is not used the same way if used/useable at all.
When you leave your DA on an ILS approach, you dont dive for the threshold right ? In that regard taking the habbit to have 4 reds is not ok. But anyhow. If he has fun that way. Cool.
-
When you leave your DA on an ILS approach, you dont dive for the threshold right ? In that regard taking the habbit to have 4 reds is not ok. But anyhow. If he has fun that way. Cool.
Four reds … maybe a bit too much except in very short final since it is what you get by aiming the threshold … but when you have a HUD, you don’t need the PAPI to know what your path angle is since you can read it on the HUD.
However, I am not speaking about ILS here … but about visual approach. ILS isn’t the same story … (until you have the runway in sight).
-
After much trial and error I have landed over 10 times without too much trouble. This is a breakthrough and I am really happy that I have accomplished this. I hope to give newbies/rookies some tips from a rookies perspective, however all credit goes to Red Dog and his awesome manual, and to all of the other vets like Niko who help us new guys learn the basics.
Congrats! :high5:
-
PAPI are useful when pilot aims the “Aiming Point Markings” to touch on “Touchdown zone” (the case for commercial pilots) … Fighter pilots (at least in the countries I knows) are rather used to
and touch rather close to runway entry (runway landing distance is always considered as factor)… hence, PAPI is not used the same way if used/useable at all.
Agree with Deejay. I’m not a pilot and take this with a grain of salt, but in my early years of Falcon and having trouble… I spoke to many F-16 pilots, who basically always told me aim the FPM in the upper center of the staple, at -3 degrees and aim for the threshold, and flare at about 80’ AGL to 11-14 degrees and touch down. Since I started to ignore ILS and PAPI and did this, I always have smooth touchdowns, without bouncing or anything.
So I’ve always wondered if that stuff was just for commercial flights?
-
I just put the flight path marker on the threshold and fly the AOA indexer to touchdown.
-
All of this advice really helps, thank you! I hope that this thread helps people like me who have a lot to learn, so that we can freely post our mistakes, what we think we are doing right and wrong, and then hopefully have help from each other and the vets to correct the mistakes that we do not realize we are making.
Any advice for rookies on the overhead landing?
Now doing the overhead landing, I have done it 3 or 4 times, and I blew up the plane once, and the AI trainer and I both ejected and survived! Overall its not going well, but no deaths yet! My main issue is that I am not making level turns, and part of that is the way I have my warthog stick and throttle jury rigged onto my chair. Now I am probably making a bunch of other mistakes too, but I think that I am not making good level turns at the break and at the perch, and that is the biggest issue. I am hoping to get chair mounts from monster tech, if they will work on a chair with curved arm bars. Then may next summer I will get the force mod for the warthog stick, which should really help with level turns. The other mistake I realize I was making after reading the training directions again, is that I was lowering my landing gear after the turn to final, when I should have done it before the perch. I was also calling the tower to report final approach after the last turn, which was crazy, because there was too much to do at the last second. Finally, when I make the last turn, I am usually ending up to the right of the runway, probably because of all the issues I have mentioned. So I have a lot to work on, but it is a lot of fun.
So those are the mistakes I am catching, if anyone has any other tips or advice, it is more than welcome.
-
PAPI is calibrated to 3 degrees and probably 1000’ down the runway. F-16 wants during visual approach 2.5 degree aimed at threshold. During far approach you can follow PAPI but at some point you want to convert to the latter which will be 3red/1white on the PAPI or very close to the runway 4red.
Always remember approach and landing are different words for different things. VASI, PAPI, tri-color, ILS, etc. are only approach aids. Landing is its own thing which generally is not done with reference to any approach aids.
-
I used the basic advice from the manual. Wait for the end of the runway to disappear under the nose, then turn. After that, wait for the end to “touch” (or pass close by, it’s OK if there’s a gap) the wingtip. Also, be gentle. The break in “overhead break” isn’t the same kind of break you do when dodging SAMs. A half-turn should take you about a minute. Do note that the whole overhead approach is not an exact science. You just have to get a feel for it.
As for PAPI, generally I found it useful, but I rely on HUD more. My idea is to respect them, but not worry about them too much. One good technique is to start below glideslope and keep flying level until you see two white, two red. Then, you start your descent. You should be around the proper slope, but as long as the FPM is where you want it, that’s where you’re going (just watch out for trees). Likewise, the AoA bracket. It needs to be green on touchdown, if it’s green before, good, but as long as it’s not red, you’re fine. Also, I found it useful to extend airbrakes during the entire approach. This lets you keep the engine at higher RPM, so it reacts much faster. Just try not to scrape them on touchdown.
BTW, it is useful to know how to do an approach without the HUD. It you buzz an enemy tank column and they take issue, you might end up taking a bullet to the generator, which will leave you bereft of the most intuitive landing cues. It’s hard to look at the runway and heads-down instruments at the same time, so it’ll generally come down to landing by feel, at least in the final phase.
-
Agree with Dragon. I think it’s important to get comfortable doing it without the hud. I feel it’s sort of similar to AA Refueling. That if you can get used to the sight picture it helps a lot. I personally always land with air brakes on (except in some emergencies), because that way my rpm is higher and the engine is much more responsive for changes. Anyway congrats on getting the hang of it.
-
I struggled really bad back when I was playing only on a default keyboard…think about that…
Shift+ctrl+Arrow //flight
Shift+Alt+ up/down arrow //throttleCombined with also managing to deal with the gears, air brake,ground brakes,and managing the rudder…
I got good at that.
I flew pitch black ILS thunderstorms.Any ways brings me to an excellent tip for a newb. Learn to use the ILS and fly with it in the HUD on clear skies ypu can practically ignore the papi and concentrate only on keeping a crosshair in the HUD and centered on the FPM…
My best landings were a result of this in the beginning.
Edit: of course keep your AOA in the green
-
Quicksilver,
That is impressive! Thanks for the tips. I will work on ILS next.Do you have a hotas now? What do you use?
-
One note about ILS: It’s great when it’s there. This will not always be the case unless you restrict yourself to major airbases that have ILS on all runways. It’s a good crutch, and by all means, use it when it’s there if you want, but there may be situations when you’ll be landing on a runway that just doesn’t have it, or has it on the wrong side given the current wind direction. In fact, some minor runways don’t even have PAPI lights. Now, think that you’ve lost your HUD and your engine, and the only runway in range is one of those… Sure, you can just pop the top, but it’s much better to save the bird if you can. Landing a Viper that way is not the easiest thing in the world (especially without the engine), but it can be done, just like with any other plane. Landing your Viper on a highway airstrip for a hotpit refuel is still somewhat easier than topping up in the air (especially in the current BMS, since the tankers are bugged and fly very short legs).
-
I wish I could say I have graduated to a HOTAS but I have two toddlers a wife and three other (expensive) hobbies.
I eventually plugged in a Xbox controller and honestly It really works VERY well and I am effective in combat now (at least against tough AI)
Back when I was using keyboard though I was dedicated to learning the aircraft and navigation so it really didn’t bother me so much to struggle with flight because I was mainly putting my head into the details of those things.
Navigation with very little visibility is still one of my favorite things. There is something very satisfying to me locating a runway (that I cant see) and landing on it.
There are some really good videos regarding ILS on youtube. -
You can get an entry-level Thrustmaster HOTAS for a reasonable price. Also, I can recommend looking for used CH controllers. They’re old tech, but durable. I managed to grab a full set for a very reasonable price (albeit at an auction), there’s nothing like flying with a HOTAS+rudder pedal.
-
Any advice for rookies on the overhead landing?
Hard to learn better than flying with a human; especially if that human has over 1000 hrs BMS F16 multiplayer hours; hit me up if interested.
-
Yes, not all of them have ILS ,but iirc TACAN works the same in cockpit and all of the runways have it. I could be wrong been a little while since 4.34 and the last time I used either. Mostly been concentrated on combat these days.
I’m just saying to use ILS as a crutch to learn the glide scope and the AOA without having to deal with papi in the distance.
-
Yes, not all of them have ILS ,but iirc TACAN works the same in cockpit and all of the runways have it. I could be wrong been a little while since 4.34 and the last time I used either. Mostly been concentrated on combat these days.
I’m just saying to use ILS as a crutch to learn the glide scope and the AOA without having to deal with papi in the distance.
-
Read thread from beginning.
1. Video is acceptable but not excellent. 80% of discussion has minimal relation to actual landing techniques and references. Visual approach and landing, such as straight in, is a simple affair which can easily be over-complicated with too many or wrong references.
I have settled on teaching straight in approach as “The 3 P’s: Position, Path, and Posture.”. They are problems the pilot has to police in a prioritized pattern prior to plowing Pohang’s parcel posthumously and should generally be solved in the given order. The correct path or posture (configuration & AOA) mean nothing is begun from the wrong position. If the airplane is high/low/left/right fix it without regard to the other elements. The correct position is between the sides of the runway (e.g. ±75’ notice video flies consistently left of centerline until 100’ crosses center without ever stabilizing and lands on the right) at a height where the angle to the threshold is 2.5°. Crosscheck with PAPI, ILS, etc. is fine. From this position fly the path toward the center of the near threshold. The right direction from one correct position will fly through all other correct positions. The wrong direction from the right position or right direction from the wrong position won’t.
Last is posture as there is no point being in the right approach and landing condition if you’re not in the right place going the right way. Slow down gear down speed brakes open, the usual drill. Reference AOA with any of the three instruments that indicate that. Cross check computed airspeed for safety. Approach at 11 or 13, pilot’s preference. You can fly 5 AOA or 8 AOA (AI do this) when far out to speed things up but resume normal AOA later. Another often missed aspect of posture is boredom. Approaches are supposed to be stabilized for tens of seconds or even minutes. You should be absolutely bored at some point during your approach. You’ve done everything you need to do already and all you are doing now is waiting for the next thing to happen. A dull approach is a good one.
2. As said before you have FPM and 2.5° reference line. That’s all you need and you can ignore PAPI especially in close.
(2 Alternate. Assuming you mean overhead so none of it makes sense for the topic) During overhead pattern there are three important “gates” that deserve to be gone through with any rigor: break, perch, and rollout. The final gate should be wings level and within the lateral boundaries of the runway 300’ AAL at whatever distance makes sense for your approach angle (2.5, 3, 3.5) so say 1 nm. After that the landing is exactly the same as a straight in from 100nm or a posthole or a -4g inverted dive. And when I say 300’ I mean it. If your rollouts are less 250’ or more 350’ work to improve it.
3. Get in the habit of intercepting the glide path from below already aligned laterally. Drive level at the glide path and have it hit your head like a ceiling. Intercepting GS at a higher altitude means starting farther away. Real life they strive for more like 250 knots for gear down. Book says 300 (video 305??) but it’s hard on the plane. Speed brakes should be open the entire approach since before gear extension unless needed. If you’re commonly descending onto GS (or solving gross lateral after) then something is wrong with technique.
4. FPM against the bracket is more accurate but indexer lights are fine too. Yes, thrust controls AOA in F-16 as pitch is largely fixed if stick is unmoved.
5. Don’t use the speed brake during the actual landing near the ground until in the 3 point attitude. It retracts to 43° maximum when you’re not on the switch. If you hold it open to 60° it will let you scrape in on the ground. Slowing down during the transition from approach to touchdown is often just a gradual throttle movement which is plenty if approach is flown right.
*Video shows a 120 knot 2° impact with the ground 424 fpm, quite harsh. He floats it 10-20’ above the runway and then lets it crash.Correct transition maneuver is at some known height (e.g. 50’) move FPM from edge of threshold toward far horizon. It should never get there as 0 fpm is not a method to descend to the runway surface. I prefer to touch FPM circle top to horizon line which gives controlled touchdown vertical rate. If transitioning from 11 AOA approach pitch up while decreasing throttle to touch down at 13 AOA. If transitioning from 13 AOA approach pitch more slowly and add throttle or delay throttle reduction to touchdown at 13 AOA.
After touchdown in the 2-point attitude adjust pitch to illuminate the indexer green donut (best reference) ensure 15 pitch is not exceeded. Video says 13 but he does 11. Do not wait for 80-90 KIAS to begin lowering the nose. Lower the nose at 100-110 knots minimizing its impact with stick back. When in the three-point attitude open the speed brakes fully and pull fully back on the stick without raising the nose. Keep the brakes fully out (60°!) and stick all the way back monitoring the rollout speed and distance. Check speed against the runway remaining boards. Often with good technique minimal brakes are needed. Do not engage NWS at 80 knots like the video says unless you need it to stay on the runway. Normally NWS is not applied until less than normal taxi speed.
-
quicksilver,
I understand. This hobby is expensive! My first hotas was the X 52, but after 3 years I was on my 3rd set, and I realized that upgrading to a quality hotas like a Warthog actually would be cost effective. Over time I keep upgrading my flight sim stuff, now I’m looking for an ICP, and in a year I hope to get a force mod. Its one reason why as a teacher I also do tutoring every chance I can get.Now there is a sale and swap forum, so you could possibly swap your wife or one of your kids for a good hotas.:D
Since my wife kicked me out after 6 weeks last summer, took my money, tried to ruin my career (twice) to cover what she was doing, and after delaying things for almost a year finally divorced me, the only thing I have to swap is my cat Braveheart! He is very good at hunting mice and killing cat treats!