SA-10 Killing me with no Missile Warning
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You can read more deeply if you wish to know the S-300/400 family.
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?32545-Guide-into-evolution-and-terms-of-air-defense-and-military-aviationVery impressive! I already knew most of the facts and wondered how it would be to go against them in BMS. DCS doesn’t have them, too. I would think, flying below tree level will not suffice
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Sa10 at the moment are just baby monsters
But since then they had a 3 to 4 weeks time to grow mad teenagers
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ECM blinking is not your “ECM turn on and hope for the best”…as you probably know it.
Something bugs me though
Since SA-10 have HOJ
Since you’ll be dead if you turn your own jammer on in BMS
Since A prowler, EF-111 or Growler closeby will protect you and allow you to overfly the Sa-10 battery without ANY threat in BMS
How come that Sa-10 can’t HOJ on the prowler, growler or EF-111 then ? -
I’ve always thought the answer was beyond BMS and classified. If it’s not, I’m interested.
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@Red:
Something bugs me though
Since SA-10 have HOJ
Since you’ll be dead if you turn your own jammer on in BMS
Since A prowler, EF-111 or Growler closeby will protect you and allow you to overfly the Sa-10 battery without ANY threat in BMS
How come that Sa-10 can’t HOJ on the prowler, growler or EF-111 then ?because growler and EF111 have supernatural powers
and because if we code real SA10 capabilities , it’s better to
- remove them form all theaters
- keep them but stay on the ground watching scenery
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As I understand, highly dedicated JAM aircraft with ALQ-99 or next gen jammer with added AESA have much more capabilities for this than ALQ-131, i.e. they are directional. There could be classified methods how they spoof a HOJ missile. But most probable are the known decoys or standoff jamming.
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And we haven’t started talking about Sa-20 …
How do they do it in real life then?I disagree actually, the way to fight them is to task saturate them. No reason to remove them if they are modelled accurately.
We just need to adapt our tactics and make the IA more efficient doing what it takes so we are able to oversaturate themEven without these changes, in 4.34 we have standoff weapon quite able to destroy the Sa-10, realistic behaviour or not
-if you know their position (coordinates) SDB
-if you don’t know their coordinates: Delilah or MITLAre these real tactics? Probably not (except for the delilah)
Are these valid tactic? Yes they are.
Pilots will always find new ways to do their mission according to the tools they have. We BMS pilots do the same. In that aspect they are valid and working tactics.
There is no need to think that removing them would be the only solution… we can cope and we can adapt and we’re always smarter than AI driven by code -
That’s a general philosophy I totally agree with. We do with what we have, this is the essence of the confrontation. Forcing totally real tactics to a not totally real environment can be justified by the pleasure of following real procedures, a will to train for real situations, but not a tactical choice. And if tactical considerations is what interests you the most, you will move from real grounds to what the simulated environment allows and forbids.
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I’ve not tested the AGM-158 in 4.34. Would it work too if you know the coordinates ?
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@Red:
Something bugs me though
Since SA-10 have HOJ
Since you’ll be dead if you turn your own jammer on in BMS
Since A prowler, EF-111 or Growler closeby will protect you and allow you to overfly the Sa-10 battery without ANY threat in BMS
How come that Sa-10 can’t HOJ on the prowler, growler or EF-111 then ?HOJ is, if I’m not mistaken, mostly used against noise jamming. Electronic attack supporting aircraft (as well as fighters’ self protection jammers) don’t necessarily only employ noise jamming, which kind of is level 0 of jamming. But in public flight sims, we won’t find much else than noise jamming…
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@Red:
Something bugs me though
Since SA-10 have HOJ
Since you’ll be dead if you turn your own jammer on in BMS
Since A prowler, EF-111 or Growler closeby will protect you and allow you to overfly the Sa-10 battery without ANY threat in BMS
How come that Sa-10 can’t HOJ on the prowler, growler or EF-111 then ?Maybe, maybe and …maybe - HOJ works if it can burn through the jamming. IF the a.c. that is jamming is actually doing it’s job (jamming) then the radar won’t get a lock. Now that’s a risk I wouldn’t like to take in a jamming plane of course!!!
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@Red:
And we haven’t started talking about Sa-20 …
How do they do it in real life then?I disagree actually, the way to fight them is to task saturate them. No reason to remove them if they are modelled accurately.
We just need to adapt our tactics and make the IA more efficient doing what it takes so we are able to oversaturate themEven without these changes, in 4.34 we have standoff weapon quite able to destroy the Sa-10, realistic behaviour or not
-if you know their position (coordinates) SDB
-if you don’t know their coordinates: Delilah or MITLAre these real tactics? Probably not (except for the delilah)
Are these valid tactic? Yes they are.
Pilots will always find new ways to do their mission according to the tools they have. We BMS pilots do the same. In that aspect they are valid and working tactics.
There is no need to think that removing them would be the only solution… we can cope and we can adapt and we’re always smarter than AI driven by codeHuman pilots can adapt, but the ATO and MI controlled flights cannot. The current system is simply way to “unskilled” for this goal. As long as the S-300 are supported the Big Bird and Clam Shell they can down incoming larger CMs…
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Human pilots can adapt, but the ATO and MI controlled flights cannot. The current system is simply way to “unskilled” for this goal. As long as the S-300 are supported the Big Bird and Clam Shell they can down incoming larger CMs…
Than you god !! Someone understanding the whole picture
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but the ATO and MI controlled flights cannot.
We just need to adapt our tactics and make the IA more efficient doing what it takes
I actually said the same
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I don’t talk about the AI because of the progress they’ve made in AA and because I love you but this is dead on
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@Red:
And we haven’t started talking about Sa-20 …
How do they do it in real life then?Dont know about real life but here is how i deal with SA-20/21’s in CMANO:
-Triangulate them with HTS or other ESM
-SOJ by the growlers
-Saturate them with MALDs (36+ per battery)- At the same time launch JASSM’s that go NOE (12+)
If they take the bait and shoot the MALDs, its a peace of cake. The battery will have some point defenses like tonguska, tor etc but 12 jassms are enough to saturate them and hit the FCR of the main battery.
If they don’t take the bait (Tight ROE) then it will take many more stand off weapons to saturate them and destroy them.
Finally if the scenario designer doesn’t give me the tools i need, i use my f-16’s as JASSM’s :P. NOE all the way to 30-40 miles, pop up to 3-4kft and quickly dive down. Repeat a few times and they will waste most of their missiles. In the process of doing that, launch multiple HARM’s. -
Dont believe Lorik, he is french.
I’m in trouble because I watch all his YouTube videos!!!
WOW - and thanks for all the educational replies. I wish I could get a B-2 on that stinky 10, but unfortunately the 393rd (which was actually my first squadron when assigned to the AF - as an exec, not a pilot) is out of AG weapons currently.
https://fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/nuclearweapons/russia_nukescurrent/sa10.html
I’ll refresh myself on TFR and give that a go, but honestly that changes my whole plan of using my 4 ship as a massive strike force on multiple high value stationary targets in the area, and report back. Maybe I’ll load the element up with HARMs to take on the SA3’s, or a couple of extra 120’s for those Migs.
Thanks all,
- bruzzer
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Than you god !! Someone understanding the whole picture
Ouch. MI = AI (MI was in Hungarian…)
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I’m in trouble because I watch all his YouTube videos!!!
WOW - and thanks for all the educational replies. I wish I could get a B-2 on that stinky 10, but unfortunately the 393rd (which was actually my first squadron when assigned to the AF - as an exec, not a pilot) is out of AG weapons currently.
https://fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/nuclearweapons/russia_nukescurrent/sa10.html
I’ll refresh myself on TFR and give that a go, but honestly that changes my whole plan of using my 4 ship as a massive strike force on multiple high value stationary targets in the area, and report back. Maybe I’ll load the element up with HARMs to take on the SA3’s, or a couple of extra 120’s for those Migs.
Thanks all,
- bruzzer
Ah, then:
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Ah, then:
If those SA-10’s where properly defended by SHORADS, those tactics would prove quite suicidal.
EDIT: Modern SHORADS! (tonguskas, Pantsirs, Tor’s etc)