SAM's are shy. How to make them shoot
-
Hi, S,
I concur. But still, say you’re doing SEAD for a package attacking an airbase. There’s a SAM there, but it doesn’t shoot as the campaign progresses. I have wondered if it’s a resupply issue, so in the past I went into MC and resupplied the SAM. It didn’t seem to help much, and of course does nothing for threats I don’t know are there.
SAM activity does seem “programmable”. In 4.33 , my go-to theater was Battle for Balkans because they kept shooting as the campaign progressed. Also, IMHO, even now Balkans seems more SAM-active then the KTOIt’s possible that SAM at the airbase is being overlapped by another with greater range. If that’s the case, they will not be as active as you would expect. I had that issue when SA-5 overlapped much of SA-2 and SA-3. The other thing with that also would be to kill the nest acquisition/search radars and you would force the nest FCR online to aquire targets.
-
I’ve seen on our online campaign that nearly every SAM site is disabled by the 5th day. Manually recon the site, I bet it’s missing it’s eyeballs….
On previous version is was the case much earlier.
(Would you prefer an option for unlimited SAM supplies and/or unlimited missile range (?))
-
Hi, S,
I concur. But still, say you’re doing SEAD for a package attacking an airbase. There’s a SAM there, but it doesn’t shoot as the campaign progresses. I have wondered if it’s a resupply issue, so in the past I went into MC and resupplied the SAM. It didn’t seem to help much, and of course does nothing for threats I don’t know are there.
SAM activity does seem “programmable”. In 4.33 , my go-to theater was Battle for Balkans because they kept shooting as the campaign progressed. Also, IMHO, even now Balkans seems more SAM-active then the KTOtheater? campaign? were you using countermeasures? this is just in 4.34?
i remember in 4.33 and 4.32 sams just shoot at you as soon as you get in the bubble, now they even don’t go “active” if you are flying inside the bubble, i think this is a self-protection because they don’t want to be seen in your RWR or HAD until they got the best opportunity to get your fighter shot down.
SAMS in RL has self protection and it’s very difficult to get a radar SAM destroyed, they shoot down any HARM you shoot against them, so i think in 4.34 the SAMS self protection tactic is do not go active until SAMS get the best opportunity to shoot you down … maybe the realistic self protection will be implemented in the future, idk … 3-4 weeks maybe
-
Hi, Everyone, and thanks for replying…
Semler - To answer your question, the SAM site from my earlier example did still have it’s radar, according to Recon.
Jkot- That IS interesting. I don’t know if there was a SA-5 I didn’t see somewhere. Are you saying that a SA-3 at a base being attacked would not shoot if it was in the WEZ of a SA-5?
Sebastianthiago- I’ve noticed the lack of “shootiness” in the KTO Rolling Fire, and Balkans Balance of Power and Deny Flight. In fact , in seems a common thing except the afforementioned 4.33 BfB.
Dee-Jay and Stalker- Dee, IMHO unlimited SAM supplies and especially range would tip the pendulum too far the other way. I’m with Stalker, I’d just seeking the most realistic, just more active. Is it realistic that SAM’s are being fired early on Day 2 of a campaign.
In RL Desert Storm and OIF, for example, SAM’s were being shot. They may have launched them ballistically only, for fear of turning on their radars, but they did shoot .
We see that some theaters are more SAM active then others. I guess my main questions that is that hard coded or can it be adjusted? If so, how do you do that in 4.34? -
Hi, Everyone, and thanks for replying…
Semler - To answer your question, the SAM site from my earlier example did still have it’s radar, according to Recon.
Jkot- That IS interesting. I don’t know if there was a SA-5 I didn’t see somewhere. Are you saying that a SA-3 at a base being attacked would not shoot if it was in the WEZ of a SA-5?
Sebastianthiago- I’ve noticed the lack of “shootiness” in the KTO Rolling Fire, and Balkans Balance of Power and Deny Flight. In fact , in seems a common thing except the afforementioned 4.33 BfB.
Dee-Jay and Stalker- Dee, IMHO unlimited SAM supplies and especially range would tip the pendulum too far the other way. I’m with Stalker, I’d just seeking the most realistic, just more active. Is it realistic that SAM’s are being fired early on Day 2 of a campaign.
In RL Desert Storm and OIF, for example, SAM’s were being shot. They may have launched them ballistically only, for fear of turning on their radars, but they did shoot .
We see that some theaters are more SAM active then others. I guess my main questions that is that hard coded or can it be adjusted? If so, how do you do that in 4.34?It has been known to happen in campaigns I’ve flown.
-
theater? campaign? were you using countermeasures? this is just in 4.34?
i remember in 4.33 and 4.32 sams just shoot at you as soon as you get in the bubble, now they even don’t go “active” if you are flying inside the bubble, i think this is a self-protection because they don’t want to be seen in your RWR or HAD until they got the best opportunity to get your fighter shot down.
SAMS in RL has self protection and it’s very difficult to get a radar SAM destroyed, they shoot down any HARM you shoot against them, so i think in 4.34 the SAMS self protection tactic is do not go active until SAMS get the best opportunity to shoot you down … maybe the realistic self protection will be implemented in the future, idk … 3-4 weeks maybeNone of the legacy SAM systems would do this because they have single target channel.
It is pointless to waste missile to this. It is easier and safer just turn of fire control radar.Legacy radar guided SAMs are the SA-2/3/4/5/6/8.
In RL.
The SA-11 has a single target channel / TELAR but even a single firing unit has two and a single battery has six. It it wort to sacrifice 1-2 target channels to keep active the rest 4-5 target channels.
The SA-15 (Tor-M1) has two target channels.
The SA-10A/B, SA-20A/B have 6 target channels.
SA-12 has as many target channels as many TELAR with CW but only up to 6 per battalion (2+1 battery each with 2 target channels).
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?32545-Guide-into-evolution-and-terms-of-air-defense-and-military-aviation -
None of the legacy SAM systems would do this because they have single target channel.
It is pointless to waste missile to this. It is easier and safer just turn of fire control radar.Legacy radar guided SAMs are the SA-2/3/4/5/6/8.
In RL.
The SA-11 has a single target channel / TELAR but even a single firing unit has two and a single battery has six. It it wort to sacrifice 1-2 target channels to keep active the rest 4-5 target channels.
The SA-15 (Tor-M1) has two target channels.
The SA-10A/B, SA-20A/B have 6 target channels.
SA-12 has as many target channels as many TELAR with CW but only up to 6 per battalion (2+1 battery each with 2 target channels).
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?32545-Guide-into-evolution-and-terms-of-air-defense-and-military-aviationWow thanks molni i never heard that info before, it’s very interesting.
What about when firing a HARM against them? They will intercept in RL or just turn off the fire control radar? -
Wow thanks molni i never heard that info before, it’s very interesting.
What about when firing a HARM against them? They will intercept in RL or just turn off the fire control radar?It depends on many factors.
For example in case of the SA-11 / Buk-M1, the Buk TELAR it may can detect the launched ARM from a plane what already tracks.
The Dvina system in Vietnam had analog display and was visible on the screen but Buk-M1 have only digital target coordinates. But I guess this ARM separation detection is built in for the system. But most likely the Kupol radar had to detect the incoming ARMs.
Same case for S-300 family the Big Bird has to detect the ARMs which is not detected by the fire control radar or the low level targ. acq. radar. The exported S-300PMU does not have a commander battery they can use their ST-68U which is assigned to the missile battery. In fact because of the modular structure and S-300 missile battery can get its own targ. acq. radar for MED-HI level, as Vietnam did it. It is explained in the chapter of S-300.
Turing of the radar or shooting down the incoming ARM is depending on the goal and scenario.
-
It depends on many factors.
For example in case of the SA-11 / Buk-M1, the Buk TELAR it may can detect the launched ARM from a plane what already tracks.
The Dvina system in Vietnam had analog display and was visible on the screen but Buk-M1 have only digital target coordinates. But I guess this ARM separation detection is built in for the system. But most likely the Kupol radar had to detect the incoming ARMs.
https://i.imgur.com/PjSPutx.pngSame case for S-300 family the Big Bird has to detect the ARMs which is not detected by the fire control radar or the low level targ. acq. radar. The exported S-300PMU does not have a commander battery they can use their ST-68U which is assigned to the missile battery. In fact because of the modular structure and S-300 missile battery can get its own targ. acq. radar for MED-HI level, as Vietnam did it. It is explained in the chapter of S-300.
Turing of the radar or shooting down the incoming ARM is depending on the goal and scenario.
Thank you
-
It depends. SA-5 is apparently a very slow/badly maneuverable missile and won’t bother with fast moving targets. AFAIK it was designed to take down slow moving cold war era bombers. But it will shoot if you are below mach 0.6 - or at least that’s what I’ve noticed.
SA-2 is definitely firing if I get too close - but even then that’s a complete waste of missiles, F-16 is way too dexterous for it. But it may just ambush you well enough if you are too busy fighting MiGs and get a lucky kill.
I mean don’t expect much other than harassment from old SAMs unless you are a new player.
SA-10 OTOH is superdeadly. Now that thing fires the moment you are in its bubble and you don’t even get a warning. If you see a <10> on your RWR - you better dive ASAP.
-
The Dvina system in Vietnam had analog display and was visible on the screen but Buk-M1 have only digital target coordinates. But I guess this ARM separation detection is built in for the system. But most likely the Kupol radar had to detect the incoming ARMs.
Sa-2 operators in Vietnam identified Wild Weasels by their flight profile.
A radar contact executing a loft was known to be a wild weasel firing a ARM. They didn’t need to see the missile separation, they knew.
B52 didn’t loft, basically back then none other than the weasels lofted anything.Sam operators became very effective at detecting the presence of weasels and targetting them specifically.
-
SA-10 OTOH is superdeadly. Now that thing fires the moment you are in its bubble and you don’t even get a warning. If you see a <10> on your RWR - you better dive ASAP.
dépends if the 10 is in the inner or outer ring of your RWR.
Outer ring in 4.34 is the search radar and harmless.Sa-10 in 4.34 BMS are far less Deadly than their real counterpart (and maybe that’s good for gameplay) some of us are know to have taken on full Sa-10 batteries in BMS and destroy them with nothing but canon fire
I doubt you can do that in real life… (although that’s what real Wild Weasels did in Vietnam with F-105 and Sa-2 site in some instances -
@Red:
dépends if the 10 is in the inner or outer ring of your RWR.
Outer ring in 4.34 is the search radar and harmless.Sa-10 in 4.34 BMS are far less Deadly than their real counterpart (and maybe that’s good for gameplay) some of us are know to have taken on full Sa-10 batteries in BMS and destroy them with nothing but canon fire
I doubt you can do that in real life… (although that’s what real Wild Weasels did in Vietnam with F-105 and Sa-2 site in some instancesthat’s true, i usually fly f-18, just get lower and jammer on you can shoot down a SA-10 just with canon (not always but you can try it)
-
that’s true, i usually fly f-18, just get lower and jammer on you can shoot down a SA-10 just with canon (not always but you can try it)
Jammer on gets you killed, 10 use home on jamming.
-
-
Despite what it looks like, in real life, risks are usually fully calculated risks. I have seen discussions about HTS and best ways to attack a SAM site in BMS.
When you want to apply real life tactics you need to first understand that the situation where you are are going to have 2xCJ’s prowling around without any support in the form of an RC-135W,E-3 etc etc is not going to happen in real life. HTS pod even in the R7 version is a pod, it will never ever have the same precision or capabilities as an RC-135, think about one system being enhanced by another one. Pods, sensors, radars on their own are like you holding a light in the dark, you get better results when you are being told where to point your beam.
Taking all this into account, the CJ is the end of the spear. The visible part of the iceberg.
The short version of all of this is that in BMS, weaseling is something that you will need to figure out on your own and apply what can be applied. Gameplay vs realism, find your balance. It is supposed to be fun !
This is what die hard hardcore simmers tend to forget, I was like that, BMS has its own realities and when you take them as for what they are you could actually develop something on your own and as far as BMS is concerned, it’s real.
-
It depends. SA-5 is apparently a very slow/badly maneuverable missile and won’t bother with fast moving targets. AFAIK it was designed to take down slow moving cold war era bombers. But it will shoot if you are below mach 0.6 - or at least that’s what I’ve noticed.
SA-2 is definitely firing if I get too close - but even then that’s a complete waste of missiles, F-16 is way too dexterous for it. But it may just ambush you well enough if you are too busy fighting MiGs and get a lucky kill.
I mean don’t expect much other than harassment from old SAMs unless you are a new player.
SA-10 OTOH is superdeadly. Now that thing fires the moment you are in its bubble and you don’t even get a warning. If you see a <10> on your RWR - you better dive ASAP.
Use the link above. SA-5 was designed to deal with MANY different kind of targets.
B-52
B-58
AGM-28
AGM-69
B-70 (never entered service) -
Jammer on gets you killed, 10 use home on jamming.
Hi, Lorik,
While we’re on the subject, I’d like a second opinion on my Grumble Dance (SA-10 evasion tactic). With the ALR-56 RWR (now aboard my Vipers and Hornet)…
Upon receiving an inner ring “10”, if I have HARM I’ll shoot it off at the SAM.Then, I strangle music and split-s to very low(ie:50 ft) altitude as quick as I can without “contact with sky/ground interface”. If I’m on Ingress I’ll come out of the dive 90 degree off my former course. I know notching doesn’t work with the -10, but at least I’m getting some lateral displacement. If I’m on Egress, I’ll dive directly away from the SAM. Then, to attack the SAM I’ll turn in and proceed, still at low altitude, to where I can perform a pop up attack. I like JSOW because it has that nice “shotgun effect” with some standoff. I try to do the pop up 10 miles from the target.
I have a question about pop up distance. The closer I can get, the better I can see the SAM launcher(s) in TGP. So, I’d like to get as close as possible . Plus, I wonder if the -10 has a minimum range -
you do a pop-up with a glide bomb?
-
you do a pop-up with a glide bomb?
This is my preferred method of destroying SA-10. Terrain mask to within 15 miles of target @ 550 kts. pop up with a single release JSOW on the Flap lid and a 2nd release on the launchers or Big Bird if you are daring and have a good masking area close to duck back in to. GBU-39 SDB will do as well if you need precision to get a target that could be shielded by a large structure on the JSOW cluster dispersal. Proper recon and a good attack azimuth are madatory. Also best to have flight members stationed just outside threat radius to clear your six if have to run out with fighters chasing you!
I set JSOW to 1800 EEGA and a 3.00 ROB.