Situational Awareness - bearing report from AWACS
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F4 and the AI awacs is a bit unrealistic no matter what you do.
There are 16 controllers on the Mission deck of a senty. Those guys can easily give their data in Bullseye and BRAA mode.
They will give periodic updates on Bullseye format for everybody to hear and use.
If they are controlling a flight of F15s to target a group of red fighters and vector other Fighter / Bombers away in that closer controll situation BRAA will be used.That intelligent switch, based on intend and available manpower (if red air has 200 flights up the Awacs controllers will be very busy just tracking and giving ocasional bullseye updates, if there are 2 Red flights you bet all blue guys close to that will get the BRAA treatment) is probably not possible in F4.
Maybe it could be done that the AI AWACS switches from Bullyeye to BRAA if the distance is less then , say 30 miles.
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There are 16 controllers on the Mission deck of a senty.
Yes … but only 2 talking.
Maybe it could be done that the AI AWACS switches from Bullyeye to BRAA if the distance is less then , say 30 miles.
Already the case as I previously said.
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if there are 2 Red flights you bet all blue guys close to that will get the BRAA treatment) is probably not possible in F4.
Well, it shouldn’t be that much of a problem for a computer. It can easily calculate all individual bearings. The thing becomes problematic only on the in-game radio messages scale. Even those could be easily per-flight or even per-plane routed. Per-flight using different victor channels would be even quite realistic scenario.
Even in flooded situation the controllers can give individual guiding to their flight of interest, if it is considered a priority thing to do.
The AI is in fact quite good at calculating these individual bearings. If you have seen large gorilla coming home from a mission, and using the AI Tower: the tower makes excellent fan out spacing for the flights. I don’t think average ATC can do the same for 15-20 planes in real time! If the pilots fly by the orders, it is very beautiful to see from the ACMI.
(Of course the ATC may have calculative tools or extra personnel to do similar. But to see it coming from a “simple” game is quite nice!)Is there a brevity word for relative bearing? In (Falcon4 context) aviation the bearing is always true bearing, or you get bullseye calls. You can also use clock-face (from AI wingmates too), which are relative. But what is the brevity to indicate relative bearing?
We in 87th use it something like “new contact, left 20, range 35…”, but there is no specific brevity word for that.
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Most realistic is by setting “Radio Calls Use Bulls-eye”.
When tgt is below a certain distance (do not remembered exactly, should be around 30 - 20Nm) … AWACS revert to BRAA.
The problem of BRAA call, is that indicated tgt position is ONLY valid for one guy at a time!
This information is usless for all other that are not on the same location! …That is why using the Bullseye is better! … a Bullseye posit is valid for EVERYONE how knows where the Bullseye is.
+1 it takes a bit, but it comes second nature.
I’ve tried to revert back to bearing/distance once and inmediatly ticked it off. Killed mi SA.S!
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The real problem for the AI is not to calculate BRAA, it does that perfectly and in fact each human will hear a slightly different call for the same contact (if the BRAA format is used and the guys are not in close formation.
Lets say we´re heading north, line abreast with 20 miles seperation and there is a mig in the middle between us and I ask for vector to threat:
I will hear 10 miles at 090 and you will hear 10 miles at 270.What happens in F4 is that the only thing each computer knows is that someone in the flight requested a vector. The sound that is played is that calculated on each computer for the human controller airplane on this computer.
Overhauling how that works would require the AI to make intelligent decissions which flight needs to get close control in BRAA and then maybe the magic possibility of the AWACS controller to say 4 different things to 4 different pilots at the same time could be fixed.
Yes overall just no matter what seems a bit more realistic then the alternative.
OTH I like it easy (and since I am the guy that killed 1200 migs on his own I deserve my own private awacs controller)Awacs using relative bearing: I don´t think that could work. The update on the friendlies heading is probably not frequent enough to give precise relative vectors, specially with the blue guys already maneuvering to engage
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The real problem for the AI is not to calculate BRAA, it does that perfectly and in fact each human will hear a slightly different call for the same contact (if the BRAA format is used and the guys are not in close formation.
Yep … This is a sort of cheating method.
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To answer some of the previous questions, it is better if you can get used to using Bullseye as soon as you can. This is imperative if you plan on flying a large force exercise with humans, but not as important if you are flying single player offline.
My technique is to make my MFD with the HSD the Sensor of Interest and then placing my cursor on the location that AWACS called out. It gives me a quick visual idea of where the bad guys are in relation to myself and my flight path.
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To answer some of the previous questions, it is better if you can get used to using Bullseye as soon as you can. This is imperative if you plan on flying a large force exercise with humans, but not as important if you are flying single player offline.
My technique is to make my MFD with the HSD the Sensor of Interest and then placing my cursor on the location that AWACS called out. It gives me a quick visual idea of where the bad guys are in relation to myself and my flight path.
Thats exacly how I been handling it
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Hans explained it correctly to you. Some would encourage you to use bullseye format from the start for the sake of realism, but it’s your choice.
Also bear in mind that “request picture” would give you directions to nearest enemy plane regardless of type, and “vector to threat” apparently to the nearest fighter. AWACS also doesn’t care if the enemies are crashing, and if you use AWACS for situation awareness in combat then you need to wait for the enemy to crash or explode to get a vector to the next one.
(Point: could we not have AWACS report vectors to the nearest 3-5 enemies instead of just one?) -
IMHO i think the most realistic is by setting “Radio Calls Use Bulls-eye” also because if the communication is intercept, the ennemy will still not know your position (unless they know the location of the bulleye).
On the other hand, a radio call from AWAC giving you ‘BRAA’ of bandit threat can be, once intercept, used by ennemy to know your position.
Isn’t it ? -
OK guys, have just read the posts here. As an ex air traffic controller, I have handled over 80 aircraft, all being vectored, changing altitude, and using speed control in a 30 minute period with the help of a handoff controller and someone to help do computer inputs. As a Falcon4 AWACS I use several different ways of informing aircraft of picture/threat. I use bullseye as a general guide to aircraft over sixty miles away from route of flight. When the flights break 60 miles, I will use o’clock call or bullseye again. If not in sight or on radar then will use BRA for futher transmission, usually within thirty miles. If not using bulleye, then all calls are off the nose of the lead aircraft (the only target you get in falcon). The most important part of the AWACS controller is to know when to shut up. “Clock” directions are general directions, using “bearing” is a positive heading to another aircraft as they are at that moment. I also use “heading” if you are being guided to a location. Using AI AWACS/ATC in F4 is kind of lame, that is why a human is usually better in answering your questions.
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Lumper, okay so a “bearing” call in F4 BMS is a heading to turn toward and fly to intercept a target - in other words equivilent to AWACS saying “Fly Heading xxx” to intercept the target - am I understanding that correctly?
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how do you indicate ur posit to the given bandit using BE?
QT
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Lumper, okay so a “bearing” call in F4 BMS is a heading to turn toward and fly to intercept a target - in other words equivilent to AWACS saying “Fly Heading xxx” to intercept the target - am I understanding that correctly?
Yep!
Remember that AWACS does not necessarily know your heading. All they can see is your historical ground track on their radar screen. So if you have turned recently, they have no idea where your nose is pointing. So they cannot make any reference to your nose. They can certainly give the magnetic bearing from your dot to the enemy dot. That’s easy. And that’s what they do.
You can try this yourself. There is a ruler provided in the map screen options menu. Click it, and you’ll get two points on the map connected by a straight line, with bullseye locs for each point, the bearing from each point to the other, and the distance between the two points. If you practice you will be able to do it without using the ruler at all. You’ll just see it.
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The most important part of the AWACS controller is to know when to shut up.
Is the JUDY call used a lot?
I think some of us 87th might be using it, but I have not heard it much in virtual fighting… We should all learn to use it.Do you use the general hemisphere calls? Ie “New bandit group NE (miles, hot)”? This might not be precise, but working and quick when all parties have somewhat SA.
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It was used in Red Flag Korea.
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Is the JUDY call used a lot?
I think some of us 87th might be using it, but I have not heard it much in virtual fighting… We should all learn to use it.AFAIK, “JUDY” is mainly for Tanker (or any other a/c type) rejoin.
JUDY :
AD fighter has radar/ visual contact and is taking control of the intercept within a close control mission.
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It’s a nice way to tell Awacs to shut up, when your flight is fighting…
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Yes, that is correct bearing is the heading you would take to go straight to the bogey without taking movement into consideration. Usually the controller/intercept officer will give you a heading to fly to intercept a hostile on one of the types of intercept (stern, abeam, headon, etc). I have hardly ever received a “judy” call, but usually I get either “no joy” or “tally-ho” (Ok, I work with a European Squad, mostly Brits). And yes, you sometimes have to tell the AWACS to “shut up” as learning how to be quiet is a hard to learn lesson when you have the “bigeye” information.
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What does the Cardinal position mean for the 3 contacts mentioned in the BMS 4.34 Comms-Nav book on page 45?