No HARMs and Mavericks in ITO v0.99!
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I have been doing experiments to figure out how to effectively conduct SEAD without HARMs or Mavericks. In the northern campaign there is a US carrier group in the Med with F/A-18s that you can task with SEAD if you like–I may try this myself at some point. But mostly I try to avoid SAMs altogether. The catch is that there are SA-6 sites right near the FLOT, making CAS a bit hairy. Best thing I have found to do against the SA-6 is to go in with music on and use the TGP to ID the Straight Flush, make a markpoint, then drop GBU-38s from 33,000’ and ~10nm out then get the hell out. The only remaining issue is enemy aircraft, which I am trying to deal with by fragging DCA and Sweeps in northern Israel before I try to take out SAMs.
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@The:
So we have to develop new campaign tactics for this? My tactics are so very desert storm related… Instead of SEAD strikes we are simply expected to avoid SAMs alltogether? It is possible for me to fly low to try and engage the SAMs with bombs but there are always SA-8s near these sights which will take me down, so engagement is impossible. This is interesting and I will try to apply it.
Related discussions here:
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?17287-Israel-Theater-0-99-Release&p=248754&viewfull=1#post248754
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?17392-SA-6-SEAD-without-standoff-weapons -
Well they do have some Apache’s there to clear the route…
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Israel does not have the HARM. At present there are some talks about it but it has not been purchased.
AGM-78 has never been used on F-16s in the IAF.
The AGM-65 used to be carried by IAF F-16s, but this is no longer true (since 1990s at least).Thanks for the reply Echo7, that really clarified things on my part, specially regarding the Mavericks (which I was sure that they were carried by IAF F-16s at some point - at least in the 80’s).
The answer was given, don’t drag the waters more as Pantera would say. ITO is a very nice and tuned theater and what you see there is what currently exists. If the Harms are purchased and will be operational on the Sufa’s I guess you will see a hotfix sooner or later. But it will take you less than a minute to anytime add yourself the Harm and Mavericks to the variants you want.
I “drag the waters” as I see fit which is until I get a reply that satisfies and clarifies my doubts which was the case of Echo7’s reply.
BTW, how can I edit ITO campaigns (or others) so that I can add Mavericks for example (or HARMs) to particular squadrons or aircraft?
I would really appreciate a reply on this regard since I’m not familiarized with Falcon4 editing. Thanks in advance. -
Hi,everybody
i found these informations and i’m wonder if it’s possible to modelise those weapons in
IT-BMS,what are you thinking about? Python5,Derby,Spice,Popeye and some others perhaps? i’m thinking about bombs like BLU-107 Durandal but israelian version more effective to destroy runwaysIt appears that those weapons are destinated for F-16 IAF!
Is it a bad idea?
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/9/1189.pdf
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/8/1188.pdf
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/4/924.pdf
http://www.rafael.co.il/Marketing/332-892-en/Marketing.aspx -
I am on this road exactly, I will post news if I manage to succeed with the project.
BTW,
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I am on this road exactly, I will post news if I manage to succeed with the project.
BTW,
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7559899/86DF89W3J7/Suf.jpg
In our falcon community we really have inspired man!
Many thanks to RAPTOR for his future work;
By the way against egyptian’s F-16 we really need operationnal IFF,because on radar MFD the are so many
aircrafts that impossible to call “Declare” for each one which seems suspect.
It appears a very low priority,said Dee-Jay…But with Israel theater it’s a another matter. -
Regarding the Python 5, SPICE and other advanced GPS / optical wepaons, they can’t be modeled well with current code which is why we chose not to add them yet. We are however working on this, you’ll need to wait a little for future BMS versions…
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So no BLU-107’s either? Also even if you can’t 100% model the Zephyr/Python5 fully why not use the regular A-A 120 setup for it or similar in the mean time.
I find it impossible to believe Israel would not have these weapons on hand for the F16 if a real war broke out right now and someone high in the CoC decided the F16’s need them. (surely the stock is there, and it’s not like an F16 can’t drop Durandals)
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(1) CFT Vipers are butt ugly
(2) If you fly Block50/52 will can have the full array of weapons. -
But it will take you less than a minute to anytime add yourself the Harm and Mavericks to the variants you want.
In F4Browse, correct? Is there any trickiness about the pylons/weapons pairings? And then you have to add stores to the squadrons at the airbases in TacEdit, right?
It might be nice, if it isn’t too much work, to have a “Playground” option in ITO Config which would put back all the BMS weapons for F16s, at least until we can get Popeye, Spice, Delilah, etc. I’m all for realism, but no F16 SEAD missions is not realistic, it seems to me. Waiting for US F/A-18 SEAD sorties, given today’s political climate, is flat-out antirealism.
What would be very cool is to find a way to spoof the BMS code in order to “model” an ECW control-insertion into the enemy’s IADS / C3I. Then invite some guys to play OPFOR in ITO Theater and watch the fireworks!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suter_%28computer_program%29
Best regards!
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(1) CFT Vipers are butt ugly
(2) If you fly Block50/52 will can have the full array of weapons.I think the Sufa is a gorgeous jet. Eye of the beholder I guess.
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get rid of the CFT and they will stop being so butt ugly.
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Just thinking out loud here, but playing ITO this weekend, another reason why having HARMs available is this: while it might be “realistic” to have only cluster bombs, etc. for SEAD, the AI cannot do effective SEAD without HARMs in my opinion. I base this on multiple missions I flew this weekend where my SEAD escort was great against AAA but of no use against SAMs. It made fore essentially impossible missions.
Until we get a smarter AI, I think there is value in making appropriate SEAD weapons available.
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maybe i’m just lucky, but i find that the AI does OK against even SA-6s. the ones on the coast north of the border actually do seem to lose the straight flush relatively early in the campaign, and then die to carpet bombing shortly after. they probably take more F-16s with them than normal in korea, but if the campaign is “winnable” by which i mean, you don’t lose your entire air force automatically to the enemy SAMs, then i see no real reason to add HARMs.
i’d have to play more campaigns in ITO to be sure. are you losing campaigns because the IAF gets totally slaughtered? i’m playing on hardest difficulty AFAIK and i’ve not had that problem. in my experience the IAF usually pretty much crushes the syrian SAM and maybe to a lesser extent their air force.
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If you read the history of the Ramadan - Yom Kippur war in October 1973 the IAF used AGM-45 Shrike missiles with some effect. The question I have is are we able to include it in a local campaign? If not, so be it. But if we are able, some explanation of how to do it will be great to recreive.
Thanks - great guys for a beautiful environment in which to fly for the IAF.
Raven
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I have played several ITO campaigns (love IT BTW) and I can tell you that if you leave the ATO alone, the F-18’s from the U.S. carrier will have pretty much eliminated the SAM threat by Day 2. Campaign is winnable in 2-4 (Falcon) days.
Dealing with SAM’s is easier in multi-player vs. playing alone. Hard (likely impossible) to coordinate a multi-directional attack w/ the AI. I have even flown on the edge of the SAM sites bubble and let them fire away until they run out of missiles and then just clean up with CBU’s.
Not having ARM’s in ITO has forced a little creative thinking on my part. Not necessarily a bad thing!
@Raven - FO’s Sinai campaign has the Shrike. ITO is going for a more modern day arsenal which doesn’t include ARM’s. I imagine you can edit your install to include ARM’s, but I would not know how to do it. Might also affect multi-player.
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Regarding the Python 5, SPICE and other advanced GPS / optical wepaons, they can’t be modeled well with current code which is why we chose not to add them yet. We are however working on this, you’ll need to wait a little for future BMS versions…
Hi Raptor – any progress to report on this? Best regards, Avi Metcaclfe.
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@The:
So we have to develop new campaign tactics for this? My tactics are so very desert storm related… Instead of SEAD strikes we are simply expected to avoid SAMs alltogether? It is possible for me to fly low to try and engage the SAMs with bombs but there are always SA-8s near these sights which will take me down, so engagement is impossible. This is interesting and I will try to apply it.
I use clusters on them in pairs.RWR warning gives me basic heading.ECM,Look for launch trail.Turn into it ,break under sam, chaff flare,And Blamo!!!one peppered sam site.love it.