SA2 launches
-
i’ve nearly been hit by dead SAMs, but it wasn’t that. the SAM was literally maybe as little as 50m from me, following my movements. i could literally look out my window and see the telephone pole HANGING OUT THERE as if by magic. it was legitimately spooky.
after it got really close (there were 2) i turned and defeated. i succeeded in the mission (sead strike against a SA-2 battery by chinese border) but it was weird as hell.
-
Turn your RWR on and off in this situation.
C9
-
Well, 1000 feet is definitely not enough to hide from an SA-2. However, if you’re positive that you’ve broken the line of sight, things do certainly become a bit more complicated. I think that theoretically speaking, if you don’t take many evasive manoeuvres the Fan Song should be able to resume guiding the missile(s) fired at you when it can see you again.
What sort of terrain specifically did you use to break the line of sight? For how long where you concealed from the radar?
-
high hills. the terrain gets very mountainous near the chinese border, which is where i was. i was flying NOE because i had already spent my HARMs on SA-3s on the way, so i climb up and over a hill that puts me in a small valley. to my west, an SA-2 lights me up, then another. i turn right, still seeing the SA-2 targeting radar (the 2) on my RWR. i make it over the hill. fan song disappears off RWR, launch warning still present, i look over my shoulder, see missile still on lead pursuit, keep going. i’m at roughly 600~ knots at this point and dropping chaff. missiles are still coming though slowing down at this point. they get very close and i do a break turn right and defeat both kinetically. proceed onto target with rockeye II and wreck that site’s (this one never fired at me, even when i came over the hill in front of it) fan song radar, and a few launchers, then proceed NOE out of range of the nearby 2s and climb to egress.
i don’t have an exact measurement of how long the missiles were in pursuit of me after the first hill, but it was a while. probably in excess of 30 seconds. i was dropping chaff and burning fairly aggressively the whole time.
-
ACMI by chance?
-
i uh, forgot to record it.
;_;
i’m going to restart a fresh tiger spirit campaign and go after the same site and see if i can replicate it though. it might be a bug, an intended feature of the RWR, or something wonky with how LoS is calculated. i’ve encountered RWR weirdness with SA-2s before. at one point i was hit by one with zero launch warning flying NOE. i think there might be something weird with how SAMs work sometimes. i’ll give it some more testing and report with findings if you guys are interested.
-
RWR does act funny for me every now and again I have to reset it……No Big Deal
What type of SAM were you hit by with no warning? ALSO if you are testing for bugs please include ACMI footage it makes finding and debugging possible problems much easier.
-
If you didn’t manouver after breaking line of sight, the missiles would still be doing a pretty accurate lead based on the guidance they received prior to the line of sight breaking. Also, if you blocked the Fan Song’s line of sight, you definitely shouldn’t be using chaff. SA-2s are semi-active, so they can’t guide by themselves.
How would you say that you know for sure that no other SA-2s were launched at you from the same azimuth around/after breaking line of sight with #1? Remember that the RWR only gives you azimuth, not distance (the distance on the RWR represents how powerful a lock a radar has on you).
Also, IIRC, the RWR doesn’t update every single second. IIRC they only update about every 10 second, but I’m not sure how they act in regards to that with launch warnings and lock ons.
-
i’m totally serious when i say these things were like 50m away tops and maneuvering slightly with me. there was a launch tone and they were following me.
i’m sure because i was using the missile incoming camera (only after i realized something was really weird. normally i don’t cheat) the two missiles followed me over the hill and were the only two missiles in flight. they were locked on me because otherwise the incoming missile camera does not work.
i was hit by a standard SA-2/fan song setup near haeju with no launch warning. i have the recording around here somewhere, i’ll go fish for it. basically, i was flying due north to hit something, SA-2 comes off the launcher, flies to me with no warning, kills me. to me at the time i just randomly exploded. looked at ACMI later and sure enough, it was a fan song battery. was very weird.
-
Honestly, if you could see them for any longer period of time (the missiles, not the smoke trails) and you kept them around your 6 o’clock, just that indicates to me that something had bugged completely. They travel at at least 1-2 Mach higher speed than you within maximum range (outside maximum they self destroy), so they should’ve hit you within seconds of you seeing them on your tail.
As for the “sneaky” one that killed you I see only three options. 1, It was launched manually at you. You were an easy target, and Fan Songs can actually do optical tracking. 2, Someone else was targeted, and you got in between. When many different SAMs are fired against jamming targets, they are set to arm after only a few seconds in flight, so if you got in between one and its target, the proximity fuze would’ve reacted to you being there.
Or my favourite, #3, my Occam’s razor theory: Your RWR malfunctioned at the wrong time in the wrong place. Tough shit :drink: -
As for the “sneaky” one that killed you I see only three options. 1, It was launched manually at you. You were an easy target, and Fan Songs can actually do optical tracking.
didn’t know that. might explain it then. it was mostly my fault; if it’s capable of launching at me i should’ve been looking for smoke. i won’t make the mistake again, just that i’d never been shot before by a non-SA-10 SAM with no warning. live and learn
-
Yep, always keep your eyes outside as much as possible. Regardless of which of the 3 options applied, seeing them will always solve the issue. If you see it fired at first, you’ll see it move to line up on a target. If you now see it stop moving, it means you’re the intended target.
Still, a big shame on you for putting a tracking SAM on your six. And using countermeasures on something as ancient as an SA-2. And even more for using it against a semi active SAM after breaking line of sight of the Fan Song
-
Honestly, if you could see them for any longer period of time (the missiles, not the smoke trails) and you kept them around your 6 o’clock, just that indicates to me that something had bugged completely. They travel at at least 1-2 Mach higher speed than you within maximum range (outside maximum they self destroy), so they should’ve hit you within seconds of you seeing them on your tail.
As for the “sneaky” one that killed you I see only three options. 1, It was launched manually at you. You were an easy target, and Fan Songs can actually do optical tracking. 2, Someone else was targeted, and you got in between. When many different SAMs are fired against jamming targets, they are set to arm after only a few seconds in flight, so if you got in between one and its target, the proximity fuze would’ve reacted to you being there.
Or my favourite, #3, my Occam’s razor theory: Your RWR malfunctioned at the wrong time in the wrong place. Tough shit :drink:Ah option 1 can not happen without radar the SA-2 will not engage you, option 3 unless you have random faults on this can not happen. Option 2 seems the most viable
-
Well, I don’t know how BMS handles it, but IRL there are provisions for optical tracking on at least some Fan Song variants.
Random faults can be disabled? I’ve never enabled any, and I relatively often see differing opinions as to whether or not SAMs are targeting me or even radiating at all between the RWR and the HAD.
-
Not BMS its in the code of Falcon, the SA-2 is tied to the Fan Song and the SA-2 missiles requires sometype of guidance IRL, the optical system you are talking about is a fallback when the radar couldnt maintain lock. In which case it was not very accurate in hitting targets. Random faults by default are not on but an improper ramp could result in system failure.
-
SA-2s can be fired without a radar lock, so using the optics is a viable way of guiding a missile. Not very accurate, but still.
Still think there are some faults by default. I haven’t enabled any, and I have never done a ramp start, I always start at runway.
The odds of actually being within the very limited area that you’d have to be within to accidentally catch an SA-2 intended for someone else is so small I’d consider both other options to be more likely.
-
SA-2 are command guided not sami-active.
There is no optical fire ability in Falcon (Fan Song-F radar and V-750SM missiles)
Yes there is a problem with terrian masking in BMS, seen it on numerious occasions. AF was more consistant.
-
can you go into what “command guided” means? i see it on a lot of things in the threat guide. i checked wikipedia. what’s the difference between SARH and command? don’t both use a central radar system to guide the missile(?)
-
Command is remote steering. The command platform has target data somehow and is steering the missile with commands. For example with command guidance it’s not a requirement for the target to actually exist. It’s perfectly valid for a real command guidance missile to be driven toward a completely fictitious target. The command missile doesn’t necessarily have to possess a seeker at all.
For SARH missile like Sparrow this is of course impossible. There must be a real physical object to reflect radar energy. SARH the missile sees a “bright spot” because something is shining a “flashlight” on it. Some kind of seeker is radar dish is needed in the missile.
What does it mean in real life? What does it mean in BMS? It depends on how the differences are used or are exploitable weaknesses. I think in BMS it doesn’t matter the difference for SA-2. If you kill or deny Fan Song radar contact you have won. But real life it is maybe possible for SA-2 to launch on IADS information and do some/all of guidance without primary radar. It’s possible to do optical tracking to silent launch. I think command and SARH have inherently different resistance to ECM too.
-
Command guidance has a radar guidance platform that tracks the target and sends instructions to the missile. The guidance platform does not know the missile position, therefor the missile navigates from a common datum and the guidance platform sends target position to the missile via datalink. The missile is equip with INS/GPS position sys. It seem Command guidance in airborne system does not have the accuracy for end game and needs HOJ or ARH not sure about ground base.
SARH is a beam rider. Command guidance at launch witch includes launcher elevation/azimuth for lead and loft is common. No datalink after launch that I know of,
TVM guidance tracks both the target and it’s missile. The guidance platform steers the missile into the target via datalink. Endgame includes a radar prox fuse.