Player Bubble and Deaggregation
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TGP does; it is a feature in one of the later (5 or 6?) “U” patches to BMS4.32. It’s one of the most useful deagg-ers there is. From my reading the FCR GM/GMT cursor is supposed to (1nm radius) as well but it doesn’t seem to for me.
When you say “player bubble” do you mean the bubble or the bubble setting slider in options? Because the slider is a multiplier and only works well on the max (6?) setting.
Everything has a bubble and so there are 4 cases if A and B bubbles are different sizes. A and B are both outside each other, B inside A but A not inside B, A inside B but B not inside A, both inside each other’s.
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Hi
- Is the player bubble side agnostic?
Sorry but I (also) don’t understand the question.
- What is the range on the ‘player bubble’? (I have heard 30 NM but no idea if that is right)
- What are the situations that will cause deaggregation?
- Is deaggration separate from the Player Bubble?
See what Hornet posted, it’s pretty accurate.
1 thing that I wanted to add (and which was already mentioned as well on this thread) is the thing of the temporary bubbles. Temp bubbles are a kind of a “trick” to keep some area deaggregated even if it shouldn’t be according to the deaggregation distance of the objects. This method is currently working for:
Maverick eye (i.e Maverick locking position).
HARM target position (when still on the AC)
TGP target position (and NOT as posted above, TGP does deaggregate since 4.32 Update 5 or so…)
The player’s wingman and flight members get a temp bubble for some time on the target area when the player is initiating some AG attack targets commandsThere are some issues with the current methods (example a deaggregated AI flight attacking an aggregated ground targets will result in the weapons falling of empty ground…) but in the next version there will be some changes that will solve much of this issues, by using temp bubbles.
TGP does; it is a feature in one of the later (5 or 6?) “U” patches to BMS4.32. It’s one of the most useful deagg-ers there is. From my reading the FCR GM/GMT cursor is supposed to (1nm radius) as well but it doesn’t seem to for me.
Correct TGP does. In fact it should have been doing that since ever (i.e since the Maverick/HARM deaggregation exists…) but the code that was suppose to do that was simply using wrong position for where the TGP is looking, the result was that the TGP bubble was working but the position was AFU :mrgreen:
GM radar never had code to make it deaggregated, I think in AF maybe they did it… but don’t worry, that is taking care of as well.
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Rock on! It sucks to have a BN spring into existence <10nm in front of you or have a wingman churn up dirt around an agg’d target for a miss. So happy.
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Okay, GREAT ANSWERS! So no hard information about ranges…I will look for the slider in the options menu to see what I can do with that.
Some clarification about the Side Agnostic question - I thought about this some more and now I’m wondering if this is less about player side and more about multiplayer setup.
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So, if I have a (player) red force jet flying over an island, will it de-agg blue force units on the island?
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If it does, will that change propagate to all users connected to the game?
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If the Red Force player is a client, and the other pilots are all clients, will they also de-aggregate?
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3 is interesting, in a PvP environment with 30+ players flying, at moments there must be many units in 3d?
With today’s computers, having a dedicated server, has the bubble played its roll? -
Players are not impacted by the deaggregation thing (I mean there is no agg/deagg between players), only IA units (air and ground) and objectives can be deaggregated and aggregated by the players. The player flight ship is always saw like a single ship (each player has its own bubble) and by definition : player can’t be agg or deagg
BB
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3 is interesting, in a PvP environment with 30+ players flying, at moments there must be many units in 3d?
With today’s computers, having a dedicated server, has the bubble played its roll?By default, the host is controlling every IA units and objectives deaggregated by each players connected (“Hosts all units” option ON by default)
BB
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@Bad:
Players are not impacted by the deaggregation thing (I mean there is no agg/deagg between players), only IA units (air and ground) and objectives can be deaggregated and aggregated by the players. The player flight ship is always saw like a single ship (each player has its own bubble) and by definition : player can’t be agg or deagg
BB
Sorry, let me clarify again:
If Player A deaggregates a unit either via bubble or via something direct (like TGP) will the deaggregation apply to all pilots?
And
How does this situation change if they are playing on a dedicated server vs a client/host setup?
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Sorry, let me clarify again:
If Player A deaggregates a unit either via bubble or via something direct (like TGP) will the deaggregation apply to all pilots?
And
How does this situation change if they are playing on a dedicated server vs a client/host setup?
A) Yes, deaggregated for all players (pilots) but controlled by the host (Pilot host or dedicated server)
B) No difference in the “way” to host a MP game : a “pilot who is hosting” or a “dedicated server who is hosting” is always controlling all the units/objectives deaggregated by each pilots (so a dedicated server will have always better performance because by definition it should be a powerful computer with a very big bandwidth capability)
BB
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Side note : the host should always be in 3D (no matter if it is a pilot who is flying or if it is what we call a dedicated server)
BB
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Okay.
So if I’m working in the Aegean theater, I can put the dedicated host in 3D Mode on the island of Lemnos, on the Turkish faction, and it will force deaggregation of all the units on Lemnos, even for Greek Pilots who fly over the island.
No one knows what the bubble range is, though?
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From memory its or used to be:
10nm for ground units.
30nm for air units.
20nm for Navel ??
Maybe 6nm around your GM/GMT radar cursors.
Sams exist in a bubble of their own determination (sorry forget the finer details) Allows for long range shots between player & Sam.
Air and Ground Bubbles can be shared between players.Go search read the manual……Cheers
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Okay.
So if I’m working in the Aegean theater, I can put the dedicated host in 3D Mode on the island of Lemnos, on the Turkish faction, and it will force deaggregation of all the units on Lemnos, even for Greek Pilots who fly over the island.
No one knows what the bubble range is, though?
You dont understand any player whatever their cam is deaggregating the units or objectives as soons as the pkayer enters their bubble.
A player can not “see” a aggregated unit , by definition it should always see deagged units no matter camp/client/terraon owner
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OK some figures from F4108
Aircraft…. 19nm
Helos … 8nm
Navel… 8nm
Ground… 4nm
Sams… Range+10%
Objectives…49nmOriginal defaults had Objectives & Air @ 15nm.
Going on a nostalgia trip, I think I even have an old log book here too.
If I fly it I might “taint” those great memories of wonder & bedazzlement.
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Boobles have been explained to a point……search Google, maybe Global Falcon forums.
I’ll try to dig up the Original developer explanation of their use in VU-2. I have it somewhere.
On a short note, it seems we are associating Entity deagg\reagg from the 2D lists to the 3D bubble.tired demer
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Boobles have been explained to a point……search Google, maybe Global Falcon forums.
I’ll try to dig up the Original developer explanation of their use in VU-2. I have it somewhere.
On a short note, it seems we are associating Entity deagg\reagg from the 2D lists to the 3D bubble.tired demer
?? Lost me
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There are many bubbles 2d 3d. Demmer I’m sure here we are talking mostly on 3d.
The brain mess up kicks in cause IIRC when some units are outside the 3d bubble and the deagregated settings are used. Meaning AI don’t deagregate locked targets if the user or host doesn’t do it.It’s very complex to put it in just a few lines. I-hawk or someone else made a detailed post IIRC that gives some insight to the complex architecture of the subject.
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Gents,
Please go here in your install for now:
X:\Falcon BMS 4.32\Docs\Falcon 4 Legacy Manuals\2 - Realism Patch 5
and start reading at page 39 to get a better understanding of Boobles in Falcon……Froggy did a pretty good job of it.
I’m still trying to find Carters post\PM? ICRCATM from 6 years ago……I’m afraid it is lost…LOL!!!demer
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I’m still trying to find Carters post\PM? ICRCATM from 6 years ago……I’m afraid it is lost…LOL!!!
demer
His Campaign Manifesto??
C9
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For what its worth here is part of a FAQ from by Glenn Kletzky aka “Sleepdoc” & Eric Marlow aka “Snacko” (iBeta) Yes its dated:
11. Bubbles, Labels, and Cursors, Oh My!!
There seems to always be some confusion with people when they use “near” labels vs. “far” labels. In 1.08, it will be even more of an imperative that people understand the difference. It’s no secret but it is a mystery to many people. And frankly, I don’t think I would have understood it if the guy who actually programmed it hadn’t explained it to me. Twice. Ok, maybe 4 times. <g>In order to understand the very distinct differences between near labels and far labels, it helps to understand the concept of the “bubble” in Falcon 4.0. As a shameless plug for my old articles on Combatsim, I refer you to the second interview I had with Kevin Klemmick (the guy who did a lot of bubble programming for F4) by reading the old “bubble article” I wrote a while back. You can find it at: http://www.combatsim.com/htm/jan99/f4-camp2.htm It is a good review (not because of me, because of the guy I was interviewing) of exactly what a bubble is and how it works. It’s a good primer read to understanding bubbles in this sim.
Things inside your bubble are things within a fixed radial distance around you. Objects inside the bubble are important, because the game actually bothers to draw in each object, and actually assigns an individual AI brain to each of the things it draws.
In other words, a battalion of tanks that ARE NOT inside your bubble are only tracked as a single entity, not as individual objects. This single entity “not-in-your-bubble” battalion of tanks still has a AI brain, but it has a singular one. One brain controls the entire battalion, and if it “fights”, it only does so in the mind of the computer, not on your screen. If it takes losses, those losses are considered as “percentages” of its total. .
As soon as this battalion (lets say 64 tanks) enters your bubble, each of the individual tanks in that battalion is actually drawn on the screen - they are also referred to by the programmers as being “de-aggregated” into their individual parts. If while those tanks were not in your bubble, and in “aggregated” form, they sustained 20% losses, then when they entered your bubble, the de-aggregation event would only draw 80% of the original 64 tanks because the rest are considered dead. Also, and more importantly, when these tanks enter your bubble, each of them gets an INDIVIDUAL AI BRAIN attached to them. This means that the CPU cycles are getting sucked down like Kool-aid on a southern porch. Over the FLOT, the action gets fast and furious, as there are so many AI brains to control. This is the primary reason why frame rates take a hit over the FLOT.
Near labels (SHF-L) places labels on “objects” - aircraft and tanks and trucks and missiles etc. - that exist IN YOUR BUBBLE.
Far labels (CTL-L) are for objects that currently exist outside of your bubble, and only in the “tracking mind” of your computer. These “aggregated” entities are not yet “de-aggregated” - not yet drawn on your screen as polygons etc, and are not yet functioning as individual AI brains.
Don’t be fooled. A flight of four MiG-29s may only show up as a single blip 50 miles on your radar because they are actually being treated by the game as a “aggregate” single brain flight, but they CAN and they WILL shoot at you. And by the way, all threats like in-flight SAMs and missiles are treated as “in your bubble” no matter what distance they are fired from.This leads to much confusion on the player’s part. Sometimes people complain of phantom missiles - missiles that appear out of nowhere. Actually, what they are seeing is a missile being fired from a flight outside their bubble. Since they have near labels on, they only see the
missiles, and not the flight that fired them. Eventually, when that flight enters their bubble, they will see the individual planes. If you point your radar toward the missiles, you will see the single blip on your radar that represents the “aggregate” flight that fired the missile, because
flights and tanks outside your bubble still appear on their respective radars. This leads me closer to the point of this article - man I can be longwinded, but this stuff takes words to explain clearly.So why am I rapping my chops over this. Well, because when you get 1.08 and you decide to play the ground war and do a little mud moving and tank busting with GBUs and Mavericks, it is very confusing if you attempt to play with far labels on. TURN FAR LABELS OFF. This is because far labels, with respect to ground targets, are not precise with respect to their location. For example, with far labels on, you might see a thing labeled “HART artillery” out in the distance. This is the far label designation for what ultimately will be labeled as a D-30 when it gets “de-aggregated” and into your bubble.
I am about to get a bit technical, so take a breath and hang in there with me.
There is a little know thing called a “secondary cursor bubble” which is working VERY WELL in both single and multiplayer right now in 1.08. Let me explain. Let’s say the bubble for ground entities around your airplane is 10 miles. But you decide to go into GBU-24 boresight mode and you point your HUD TD box to some point on the ground 40 miles in front of you because
you see a FAR LABEL out there which reads “HART ARTILLERY”. When you put your TD HUD box right on the label, the label disappears! Why? Well, because the locations of things outside your bubble are imprecise - those d-30s are near that HART label, just not right under it.Objects that are too far away to see are tracked in a positional fashion, and very imprecisely. Those D-30s are with a few miles of where the far label is, but not exactly. This technique of not tracking the location to the inch of campaign aggregated objects saves TONS of CPU cycles so you can fight the war inside your bubble with tight tracking. And when you point your cursor at the ground somewhere outside your bubble, a magic trick occurs. ANYTHING IN A 1 MILE RADUIS AROUND YOUR RADAR GROUND CURSORS, NO MATTER HOW FAR OUTSIDE YOUR BUBBLE THEY MAY BE, GET THEIR OWN BUBBLE CALLED THE SECONDARY CURSOR BUBBLE.
Welcome to your first introduction of the “secondary cursor bubble”.
This secondary cursor bubble forces things like SAM sites you pick up and target in your HTS (HARM Targeting System), or tank columns you see in GMT, to suddenly and completely de-aggregate when you place those respective radar cursors on top of them. THIS IS GOOD and did not always work right in prior versions of F4. It works very well indeed in 1.08.
So what is the point of all this? The point is that if you want to move mud, DO NOT USE FAR LABELS. Use near labels only. If you want to find targets outside your 8 mile ground target bubble (the air target bubble is about 20 miles and for ground targets about 8 miles … these are max settings), then you should lock them up on GMT first. You will start to notice that when you lock a single GMT radar blip 40 miles out on GMT and slave your GBU cam to the radar and suddenly, the “single blip” you saw on the radar becomes (expands into) a “line of blips”. That is because the single blip was a line of tanks that was not yet de-aggregated. When you locked it up and pointed your GBU or Maverick cam at it, it fell underneath your secondary cursor bubble, and all 64 tanks (or less depending on your slider setting in options called “object density”) became visible. You forced them to de-aggregate and become visible, and to be drawn by placing them underneath you SECONDARY CURSOR BUBBLE.
But more importantly, their labels will appear even though you are only using near labels. This is because near labels are for things in your bubble, and things forced to appear by your secondary cursor bubble are within your bubble. In multiplayer, you need to wait a second or so for the labels to appear or disappear when you stabilize your ground cursor, because the message must be processed “over the wire”. But it will process. This is quicker in single player of course.
So what is the moral of the story? The moral of the story is that whenever you are mud moving, especially in multiplayer games, it is far better and far less confusing if you only use near labels. Far labels only add to the confusion about where the targets really are. Use your GMT and GM radar to locate and ground stabilize your radar on your targets - you will find the near labels of your targets as they should.
Side note: The programmers of F4 admitted to me that they once considered removing far labels as a option in the game because of the confusion potential for the public that it could cause. They decided to leave it, as well as many other things, in the philosophy that more options and futures are better. I’m hoping this write-up will help make their decision the right one. "</g>