True stick orientation?

[Stevie]

This is sort of the stuff of legend…ok, I’m going from memory here. I think the picture I posted depicts the internal axis of the SSC itself, and that the grip itself is not rotated to this extent if at all. And that as mentioned there is also a software component that does some tricks to make all of the ergonomics work. I also think some of the cockpit pictures posted are taken with wide angle lenses and don’t really show true views…so examine carefully.

When I first joined VP years ago there was a project thread on replicating a real SSC part for part…complete with drawings to do so - if you had the skills of a watchmaker you could build one from the package, and I think at least one machinist on the project did so. I grabbed a bunch of that info, but it has since become lost in server migrations…the drawing I posted was part of that research. I hope the mods have retained the info somewhere, because I can’t find it all in one thread/location anymore. Anyway, here’s another little one to further confuse you…

[Badger]

Speaking from a bit of experience here.

way long ago, the belief was that the stick was rotated outboard 12*
When I mounted my FCC3 into the base, I rotated it 12* outboard.

Later it was found that it was the sensor that was rotated and not the stick.
I’ve never changed it after all these years.

I never had any trouble controlling X or Y axis .
since I do not have arm or wrist rests, when my hand is on the stick my elbow is near my hips which means my forearm extends from my body at an angle.
Which is very comfortable.

Now if I had an arm rest that was aligning my arm more parallel with the sill, it would be awkward because my wrist would have a sharp angle.

I know that some of us want to be realistic as possibly but, consider your own comfort too and weather you will have arm / wrist rests in your set up.

my $0.02

[Arty]

But 12deg outboards for the stick is not comfortable for the wrist.
Hehe I already have the 6deg vertical in mine.
I use 2 wedges at the back of the stick base. The whole thing is strapped with Velcro and it’s rock solid and more comfortable.
About the 12 deg internal ain’t there some tube extenders that mimic the 6deg in vertical? So tell those guys making those to apply 12deg in horizontal first then the 6deg vertical.
Attach the tube to the stick and turn the base 12deg inboard.
Tough for the already made home pit builders.

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[Tulkas]

Been there man

https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?16647-Mainly-for-Mav-JP-12-degrees-stick-axes-offset

That thread got pretty interesting and full of good info (and some missinfo), to cut it short I tell you that the conclusion I reached is what they have already told you here: The stick is not rotated, the internal sensors are, 12 degrees to the right

So in my own cockpit I mounted the stick straight forward and easily rotated the axes 12 degrees with TARGET:

To be honest, I did it just to have it “more real” and I can see the ergonomics behind it, but you can fly fine without the rotation and it took me time to get use to it to the point that was difficult to make a perfect level turn.

Cheers

Tulkas

[Arty]

@Tulkas:

So in my own cockpit I mounted the stick straight forward and easily rotated the axes 12 degrees with TARGET:

hmmm that is the best solution for the 12deg i believe…

I believe this is doable and with CCP or Foxy???

[Stevie]

…and I think Arend’s FCC3 WH (and maybe the base one as well?) can also allow for such in software?

[Guest]

Thank you for the info guys! I think this answers it for the rotation –- stick is facing straight but input/sensors are rotated 12 degrees…

Now for the tilt… Stevie’s drawing perfectly explains what I am trying to ask: If the console is tilted 6 degrees and the SSC box is just a normal “box,” then it is also tilted 6 degrees, and if the connector gives a 15 degree forward tilt, in reality it is only tilting the stick 9 degrees, correct?

[Stevie]

…sounds like you go the math right to me.

[Guest]

Thanks Stevie!

[Martin_Lee]

@Arty:

hmmm that is the best solution for the 12deg i believe…

I believe this is doable and with CCP or Foxy???

Wondering the same with Foxy, I haven’t been using foxy for a long long time. I don’t remember seeing CCP have this option. With TARGET it is definitly doable.

[DaveB]

Not possible with CCP I’ll check to be sure but I’m almost positive that its not possible in Foxy either.
Dave

[Falcas]

@Martin_Lee:

Wondering the same with Foxy, I haven’t been using foxy for a long long time. I don’t remember seeing CCP have this option. With TARGET it is definitly doable.

Hey,

You gents do understand that the stick has no 12 deg rotation and also the force is NOT rotated.
When you pull the stick straight backwards with your arm in the armrest, that is the direction of the pitch axis.
The rotation of the sensor does not mean that this is what the pitch axis is rotated. Its not.

Just build in your stick straight and let the axis be as it is. Than you are spot on.
I have plenty of time in real F-16 sims and had multiple F-16 pilots fly in my own build pit to verify this.

Gr Falcas

[Arty]

@Falcas:

Hey,

You gents do understand that the stick has no 12 deg rotation and also the force is NOT rotated.
When you pull the stick straight backwards with your arm in the armrest, that is the direction of the pitch axis.
The rotation of the sensor does not mean that this is what the pitch axis is rotated. Its not.

Just build in your stick straight and let the axis be as it is. Than you are spot on.
I have plenty of time in real F-16 sims and had multiple F-16 pilots fly in my own build pit to verify this.

Gr Falcas

Great clarification Falcas.

So all that fusss - writting - reading - posting - linking - headbunging just for nothing.

[emoji38] we r all pathetic. :rofl:

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[chihirobelmo]

Aerotronics LLC might be misunderstanding about RL F-16 SSC?

http://www.aerotronicsllc.com/f16ssc.htm

[Martin_Lee]

Hm… After reading what Tulkas and Falcas said, I am greatly confused.

I can understand the stick facing forward, I can feel the ergonomics there. It just feel comfortable, with any other angle either my wrist is twisted or some hat switches being hard to reach. I think it is just a coincidence that it faces forward, if it is ergonomical to put it in other angles, they’d probably do it.

I can also understand why the sensor might be rotated. When we pull, we pull along the direction of out forearm. That is natural and ergonomical. If the stick is in a position that cause your forearm to be at an angle relative to the plane’s, rotating the sensor is sensible.

I can make sense of those two factors above. It’s like how some ergonomics mouse seems to have their “long axis” being … “off”, it feels comfortable to hold that way. When you push or pull, along the direction of your forearm and not the “long axis”, the cursor moves straight up and down, because the sensor is aligned with the axis of your forearm.

Stick facing straight forward is what Tulkas and Falcas agrees. But what does Falcas mean when he say “forces are not rotated”? Does he means the force exerted through our arm? Or does he means the sensor is not rotated? the link by chihirobelmo seems to agree with Tulkas.

Sorry if my question is somewhat directed. I don’t know why this would suddenly border me so much, I just have an urge to make sense of this, even though I am happy with where I put my stick now. I don’t have a cockpit, and I am pretty sure there are two women (my mum and girlfriend) would want to splash me with a fox two (close range slap) if I ever have a thought of building one. It is just on a stool next to my office chair with arm rests removed, so F-16 ergonomics could never be applied.

[Arty]

Do you understand how HOTAS Cougar works in our SIM Falcon BMS?
How do you place the stick? Facing forward.
The same is as in real.
The rest are mambo jambo technical and placement. No need to actually bother.

The manufacturer for his crazy need turned the sensor then the software must translate all this. Obvious reason? Block 3d party manufacturers to create cheaper replacement parts. SO when a stick goes off… the company laughs to it’s ears saying come to papa…

[Stevie]

I don’t think the stick has always been oriented the way it is in later Blocks or currently…I once had a former F-16 driver tell me that just about every pilot he has instructed (that is transitioning from a center stick) will land an F-16 leaning to one wingtip down on their first try - and I forget if it was the left or right wing, but it’s always the same one. I think the funky rotation and electronics is/are an attempt to counter that tendency ergonomically over the years.

But I’ll go with Arty - unless you are building a full-on replica cockpit it really doesn’t matter…as long as the geometry is comfortable to/for you and your setup.

[Martin_Lee]

Thanks Arty and Stevie, thanks for the clarification. It’s good to know some of the reasons for that Now I can sleep easier:)