Some questions on AGM88s using POS mode vs SA2s
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So, I started the Rolling Fire campaign, and I have some questions…
So basically, my first mission is to hit some SA2s. And I want to use AGM 88s to hit the targets using POS mode. So how can I do that?
Should I recon the map where the SA2s are located and assign a different steerpoint to each one of them? Or should I place a PPT steerpoint above the general vicinity of where the SA2s are located and use that steerpoint inside the POS WPN? Because I did both of these things and I just can’t get the missile to lock on any of the targets… Any hints?
Also, when I am in range, should I wait to see “2” in my RWR, should my RWR be in HAND of mode and my RWR system power to be on low altitude mode?
Finally, what’s the best way to disable these sams (for the campaign)? Should I destroy just the radar or should I destroy every single one of them?
thanks guys sorry for being a noob
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The SA-2 being a weapon system of many parts, you really want to hit an emitting Fan Song (SNR-75) radar vehicle. The emitting part is important as the missile has a small warhead and nil chance to hit a non-emitting system. Some SAM systems have multiple radars and only switch to the engagement radar late if a target is present which can mean lobbing a HARM their way might not pick up the desired emission.
PPT and steerpoint are both steerpoints and you can use either for a POSition shot against an emitter. The PTT has the benefit of the HSD symbology is all.
It’s important to realize that a POS shot is a LOAL-type shot. You do not lock a particular target before firing. You supply a steerpoint location and an emitter type and let loose. While the missile is in flight it begins looking for the closest emitter of the assigned type and homes in on it. The different flavors of POS shot determine only at what point and with what search pattern the hunt begins. A high and fast delivery can reach out to 70nm in the missiles 200s lifetime which is more than enough to out-range the SA-2. One should take care to check recon imagery that a building or terrain won’t interrupt the shallow terminal approach. 20-30nm standoff at firing is plenty and entering the range with the HARM mid-flight encourages the SA-2 to emit.
EOM is useful for good steerpoint precision where other emitters of the same type are nearby, target location error <1nm. PB is wider, TLE <5nm. RUK is the widest and gives no ETE figure. RUK can miss near emitters going for a distant steerpoint as it will loft over them. Off-bore performance is pretty bad last I checked and I would recommend firing to minimize missile turns. The missile can turn but it takes precious flight time.
For SA-2s in campaign I’d probably fire PB at PPT STPTs, 2:00 ETE straight ahead from 25-35kft, fast as possible. Remember to select the “2” type before launch and that each missile is set independently.
To get AI to target for HARMs either let them weapons free at the mission target or use your HARM in HAS mode (or HAD/HTS) as your targeting sensor. Getting your wingman to shoot harms at targets of opportunity when you don’t have a HTS or HARM yourself is a pain in the butt.
The RWR isn’t involved in HARM shooting except as a general indicator of emitter activity. The LOW prioritization won’t be of any practical use. The diamond over the emitter isn’t necessary but is helpful to listen in to the radar activity. Remember you can hold the handoff button to get the diamond to move to any threat to listen to its audio. The ALQ jammer and chaff are significantly effective against the Fan Song. A long-range launch is disrupted immediately by jammer application.
The SA-2 is rendered ineffective without its Fan Song, although it can be replaced over several days time. The defunct missiles launchers are good targets for F-4 or F-5 bombing sorties.
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Awesome reply, thank you so much for the info Frederf : )
I wonder if I should fire the missile as soon as it gets in range, or should I wait for the “2” to appear on my RWR to maximise my hit ratio?
What would be the hardest SA type to destroy by your opinion in the game? -
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To get AI to target for HARMs either let them weapons free at the mission target or use your HARM in HAS mode (or HAD/HTS) as your targeting sensor. Getting your wingman to shoot harms at targets of opportunity when you don’t have a HTS or HARM yourself is a pain in the butt…
I remember I couldnt get my AI wingman to shoot any target as I had not enabled the “attack my target option” even when having a SAM locked at my HAD once fired all my HARMs
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While in reality the Fan Song could be off waiting until the air defense network (or its organic search radar) to tell it to turn on, in BMS the Fan Songs are always on. Such is not true of all SAMs though. Anywhere between max range and getting shot at is fine. I tend to shoot from ~20nm as longer range is shallower and I might hit a hill/building or timeout. If you shoot a max range shot and dash inward before a second the second will often hit before the first. It can matter if you’re escorting someone driving into a threat zone.
SAM v HARM has three primary challenges and each has a worst opponent:
1. Range, SA-5 and SA-10 are long-ranged. The SA-5 is less sophisticated but slightly longer range than the SA-10 which itself is extremely dangerous kinematically and gives no warning you’re under attack. Because these tend to have their engagement radars off it can be a bit of a game to get them to emit but not get engaged and die yourself. Thankfully they are static and easy to pre-plan for and usually not too numerous.
2. Non-emission, pretty much anything which doesn’t rely on its engagement radar 24/7 requires some care to not waste a missile. Most SAMs that do this it is not too troublesome to encourage them to turn on being at the edge of their engagement envelope but one has to be aware.
3. Mobility, SA-15 SA-17 SA-19 and even the lowly Shilka don’t have much range but they can be anywhere anytime. Since they are mobile it’s best to to engage them with HTS/HAD if available or HAS if necessary.
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I would like to use HTS to locate the emitter for DED mission but it look like it is able to drive only HARMS, Is there any way to get coordinates from HTS? can i pass it to JDAM or TGP for AGM65 attack?
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Not in BMS. Even real life a weapons-capable solution from a SAM emission is a huge technical challenge often requiring realtime airplane to airplane coordination to triangulate.
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While in reality the Fan Song could be off waiting until the air defense network (or its organic search radar) to tell it to turn on, in BMS the Fan Songs are always on. Such is not true of all SAMs though.
Are you shore about that ? I do believe I have been caught out with SA-2 activating behind me in BMS.
It might have been terrain masking but that is not as I remember.
Regards
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In FAF I see them react to my FCR emissions…which I’d like to see in BMS, if it’s not already the case.
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It’s also possible for replacement units to hit a BN while you’re mid air. It would be unlucky to be in a WEZ of an SA-2 right when they got a shiny new radar van but it’s happened once to me. It might also be possible that it was busy with another customer. But a genuine intentional “ambush” radar emission I think is impossible in BMS.
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Try locking the emitter with the HAD then put it in your HUD
Then using the HUD as SOI create a markpoint over the target circle…. this will give you a point to search with other sensors -
Migbuster has a good idea…and what I’m describing in FAF isn’t so much an “ambush” as a defensive behavior…
…but the basics of any SAM attack is that you have to get them to light up in order to prosecute the attack. So you have to give them something to shoot at. Therein lies room for creativity.
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I think Migbuster is performing what is sometimes know as “the circle in the square” procedure to kill SAM radars with MAVs
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…good luck, if you’re using MAV.
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…good luck, if you’re using MAV.
depends on the SAM type and the MAV type - use “G” Mavs (longer range) and stay away from SA19’s until you get good at it ;0)
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Try locking the emitter with the HAD then put it in your HUD
Then using the HUD as SOI create a markpoint over the target circle…. this will give you a point to search with other sensorsWith good terrain conditions in the vicinity.
Everything you need to know and links in my Youtube channel, "About" section.
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With good terrain conditions in the vicinity.
nice vid - busy day at the office !!!
I don’t think I would have gone in at 540 knts - 350 gives you a better turning radius and more time to sort - lock - fire.
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nice vid - busy day at the office !!!
I don’t think I would have gone in at 540 knts - 350 gives you a better turning radius and more time to sort - lock - fire.
Waiting for the vid
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depends on the SAM type and the MAV type - use “G” Mavs (longer range) and stay away from SA19’s until you get good at it ;0)
Actually, the effective range of a MAV doesn’t lend it well to SAM killing of an sort in RL…AAA, maybe. But personally, I wouldn’t go SAM hunting with anything but HARM or Shrike.
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Used it for shorter range defence radars embedded with troops or AD formations to pin point their location on the fly……especially when flying above clouds and pea soup weather.
