Target sorting tips?

[Tazz]

I’m on day 1 of my freshly-started original Korea Iron Fortress campaign, the one where the allied forces are boxed in at the Pusan perimeter.
At some point, there’s scramble call as two groups of bandits are inbound for Taegu air base - despite plenty of BARCAP sorties already being in the air.

Bear in mind that this being a scrambled intercept sortie, you don’t get to pick your loadout so I took off with two AIM-120s, two AIM-9Ms and two AIM-9Xs.
I would have preferred to take off with FOUR AIM-120s, two AIM-9Xs, two bags of gas and a Sniper pod to assist visual identification of my targets.

As it turns out, there’s a MiG-23ML two-ship formation inbound, alongside a MiG-21MF four-ship. On my first attempt, I intercepted the MIG-23MLs first and used my two AIM-120s to dispatch them.

However, when I turned to engage the MiG-21s with my remaining heaters, I’m attacked by a MiG-29A two-ship from beyond visual range. Judging from my wingman radio call, “Adder inbound”, the MiG-29s are carrying AA-12s and I need to go seriously defensive to defeat the missiles. Either I fail and end up ejecting from a burning wreck or I do defeat the missiles but I end up low on speed and altitude and I get jumped by the four MiG-21s. They may only be old Fishbeds but when you’re out of energy and altitude……

Reloading my campaign save game, I’ve been trying this intercept mission several times - this time with the idea that I want to engage those MiG-29As in BVR first and then turn my attention to the lower class threats.

However my problem is that my FCR is literally FULL of contacts - there are the six MIG-23MLs and MiG-21s but there are also a lot of friendly aircraft around. It’s taking my ages to work through the contacts, declaring them with AWACS , by which time the MiGs are usually all over me.

Does anyone has any useful tips to sort out the highest priority / threat targets in a contact-rich environment?

[LorikEolmin]

@Tazz:

I’m on day 1 of my freshly-started original Korea Iron Fortress campaign, the one where the allied forces are boxed in at the Pusan perimeter.
At some point, there’s scramble call as two groups of bandits are inbound for Taegu air base - despite plenty of BARCAP sorties already being in the air.

Bear in mind that this being a scrambled intercept sortie, you don’t get to pick your loadout so I took off with two AIM-120s, two AIM-9Ms and two AIM-9Xs.
I would have preferred to take off with FOUR AIM-120s, two AIM-9Xs, two bags of gas and a Sniper pod to assist visual identification of my targets.

As it turns out, there’s a MiG-23ML two-ship formation inbound, alongside a MiG-21MF four-ship. On my first attempt, I intercepted the MIG-23MLs first and used my two AIM-120s to dispatch them.

However, when I turned to engage the MiG-21s with my remaining heaters, I’m attacked by a MiG-29A two-ship from beyond visual range. Judging from my wingman radio call, “Adder inbound”, the MiG-29s are carrying AA-12s and I need to go seriously defensive to defeat the missiles. Either I fail and end up ejecting from a burning wreck or I do defeat the missiles but I end up low on speed and altitude and I get jumped by the four MiG-21s. They may only be old Fishbeds but when you’re out of energy and altitude……

Reloading my campaign save game, I’ve been trying this intercept mission several times - this time with the idea that I want to engage those MiG-29As in BVR first and then turn my attention to the lower class threats.

However my problem is that my FCR is literally FULL of contacts - there are the six MIG-23MLs and MiG-21s but there are also a lot of friendly aircraft around. It’s taking my ages to work through the contacts, declaring them with AWACS , by which time the MiGs are usually all over me.

Does anyone has any useful tips to sort out the highest priority / threat targets in a contact-rich environment?

1/ Keep doing it often
2/ Stay away from the mass
3/ Identify the ones looking hot on you
4/ Set your datalink so you can see at least flight leaders from your packages on your HSD and FCR
5/ Don’t let an artificial intelligence frag your flights But that’s an easy one. Got your point.

Many contacts (with, let’s say as many friends and foes) mean something went wrong for both sides. Going X-Wing on the contacts is suicidal. If you want to defend your base, do what you wouldn’t want your enemy to do. Stay slightly “behind” it, and when you see contacts approaching, deliver your gifts, within the limits of your loadout.

[Cik]

best bet is to immediately haul until you are behind the base from the bandits’ vector, then go TWS and find everything that’s really hot on you.

this will filter:

friendlies (unless unlucky)
cargo/helis/transport/strikers (too slow)
unengaged bandits (slow and not coming towards you)

correlate with your RWR to identify ^29 and get approximate heading to cue your radar scan.

really though you might just have to adjust your expectations. 2 falcons (with 1 AI) with 4x radar in total may very well have trouble with a relatively large strike package escorted by relatively decent enemy fighters. ultimately you’re going to hit a point where you can’t last starfighter your way out of it- there is a limit of useful weapons, that is, 6x AAM and 510 20mm rounds

[LorikEolmin]

@Cik:

best bet is to immediately haul until you are behind the base from the bandits’ vector, then go TWS and find everything that’s really hot on you.

this will filter:

friendlies (unless unlucky)
cargo/helis/transport/strikers (too slow)
unengaged bandits (slow and not coming towards you)

correlate with your RWR to identify ^29 and get approximate heading to cue your radar scan.

really though you might just have to adjust your expectations. 2 falcons (with 1 AI) with 4x radar in total may very well have trouble with a relatively large strike package escorted by relatively decent enemy fighters. ultimately you’re going to hit a point where you can’t last starfighter your way out of it- there is a limit of useful weapons, that is, 6x AAM and 510 20mm rounds

HAHAHA that’s brilliant! I swear I’m not Cik.

[Quasi_Stellar]

+1 for these remarks. If the airspace has plenty a friendlies, they may be engaging as well. For the sake of your airframe, stand off and see if the furball will sort itself. Scan for rouge outliers. Sending Slammers into a furball could result in friendly frags…

[Frederf]

It’s quite the tactical challenge.

First tip I think is always use the AI’s missiles on the easiest targets as you’re more adaptable. Now I don’t know if this is an AG threat package, bombing your airbase, or simply a sweep. But you want to think in terms of mission kill instead of charred Nork bones and teeth. Even if they all fly home it’s best they don’t achieve their aim. I’ve spoiled airbase attacks while Winchester with a hard lock and a mean stare.

Second it is a unhelpful to treat the Fishbed/Floggers as peer threats. Of course underestimating them is unhealthy but I have gotten in bad situations by treating as more potent than they are. The 29As should only have AA-10s, the 20Ss have AA-11s. Their close range IR is to be avoided only second place to terrain rushing up.

(…)

The Fulcrums are the biggest deal. Depending on their tasking and motivation you might be able to completely avoid them. Radar snooze (wingy too) and use AWACS to vector you to target. If you stay low, wide, clear you might be able to hit the intended flight without the Fulcrum being triggered. Are they tasked as escort with the Fishbed-Flogger package or just happen to be in the neighborhood?

One tends pick out the red air from the mix with some experience. There’s something about the altitudes and speeds that jumps out. Still doesn’t help when friendlies are in the mix. Still it’s possible to have a CAF where one doesn’t look present on first glance.

Hopefully one could either avoid the Fulcrums or have wingy fire a chainsaw at one to bunt their offensive potential. Lean away such that the weapons hold post-launch wingy flies to you and away from the threat. Then when clear there are ways to get wingy to pump. Wingy defensive is bad news because they don’t prioritize getting out of dodge big-picture.

With 1-2 high threats cold defensive on a long shot (even though they’ll be back), that might be enough opportunity to prosecute the Fish-Flogger blob. Provided it’s MiG-29A you should be able to press the final against AA-10 as he will definitely have to flinch first. If you feel the fight is too close send wingman away early as he will be a liability close and you’re going to want his help when its your turn to turn cold.

I’m curious the exact scenario to see how one might pick apart their formation. AIM-120s even if they don’t kill can force certain enemy elements cold and buy you tactical openings by getting them out of phase. Out of phase enemy has less initial intensity but allows them a constant pressure as various elements are returning hot at different times. In general I would try to exploit lateral room, maneuvering to the cold side away from the Fulcrums. From the side you already have their escape half closed off when head-on their away and home are in the same direction. Don’t be afraid to crank the threats completely off the radar with 90-120 degree turns away. It’s easily to self-limit yourself to keeping them on the radar picture. A good mental picture only needs occasional sensor updates.

[Blu3wolf]

Sounds like you want help with targeting rather than sorting.

it would be nice if a future BMS version added a functional ABM/WD. In this situation realistically you need help to build SA immediately on takeoff. DECLARE calls are not the ideal solution. The ideal solution (J-series messages 3.2 and 12.5) is probably not going to happen in BMS soon if ever. The RWR slave FCR mode isnt implemented either, making it hard to use the RWR to accurately build SA.

In the absence of a human ABM to give you the picture, your best bet is likely retaining distance until you have identified the picture as best you can, or until the striker aircraft get within 30 miles of the base. At which point, target groups according to your decided upon tactic, and try to flow from group to group as best as possible.

[thereisnotime]

yeah, so this is just my take on things and I think it’s more about your perception and your mentality in engagement, not trying to be mean or anything just my perspective.

IN RL, your flight would be tasked onto hostile contacts, you’d get sorted by awacs, or if any blue forces were actively engaged you might get a BRA call to that situation.

Given that we don’t have human controllers, here is what I would do. Take 30 degree offsets until you can kite one of the groups out into your wheel house, you want them coming to your house, not flying in like rambo all guns blazing. Use your energy and space, just like in hockey or a sport to suck them in, then you can pass them to your ground fire support disengage, or put them on the nose and blast.

[Axe]

@Tazz:

I’m on day 1 of my freshly-started original Korea Iron Fortress campaign, the one where the allied forces are boxed in at the Pusan perimeter.
At some point, there’s scramble call as two groups of bandits are inbound for Taegu air base - despite plenty of BARCAP sorties already being in the air.

Don’t let those barcaps fool you and give you too much confidence, they’ll continue their sortie even after running out of missiles.

@Tazz:

Bear in mind that this being a scrambled intercept sortie, you don’t get to pick your loadout so I took off with two AIM-120s, two AIM-9Ms and two AIM-9Xs.
I would have preferred to take off with FOUR AIM-120s, two AIM-9Xs, two bags of gas and a Sniper pod to assist visual identification of my targets.

I agree that is a sucky loadout. IMO.

@Tazz:

As it turns out, there’s a MiG-23ML two-ship formation inbound, alongside a MiG-21MF four-ship. On my first attempt, I intercepted the MIG-23MLs first and used my two AIM-120s to dispatch them.

Good job!!!

@Tazz:

However, when I turned to engage the MiG-21s with my remaining heaters, I’m attacked by a MiG-29A two-ship from beyond visual range. Judging from my wingman radio call, “Adder inbound”, the MiG-29s are carrying AA-12s and I need to go seriously defensive to defeat the missiles. Either I fail and end up ejecting from a burning wreck or I do defeat the missiles but I end up low on speed and altitude and I get jumped by the four MiG-21s. They may only be old Fishbeds but when you’re out of energy and altitude……

The most important time to sort is when defensive with missile inbound. I mean you just dragging, what else you got to do at that point. Don’t turn back until you have clarity, your alt, speed, know who’s close, their alt, how many. Even then
maybe only plan on a partial turn back, just give em a nibble to see if they bite, while absolutely ready to go defensive again.

@Tazz:

Reloading my campaign save game, I’ve been trying this intercept mission several times - this time with the idea that I want to engage those MiG-29As in BVR first and then turn my attention to the lower class threats.

However my problem is that my FCR is literally FULL of contacts - there are the six MIG-23MLs and MiG-21s but there are also a lot of friendly aircraft around. It’s taking my ages to work through the contacts, declaring them with AWACS , by which time the MiGs are usually all over me.

Does anyone has any useful tips to sort out the highest priority / threat targets in a contact-rich environment?

Well that’s a tough situation, number one priority is to bring home the jet! If you could have loaded like you wanted you could do more. The tanks would be a big plus. Not your fault. Extend, extend, extend, gettin awacs threat updates,
and maybe location for divert.

[Tazz]

I’m going to give this a try again tonight. This time I’m going to take off and immediately go south then circle west to end up behind the engaging bandits.

Fingers crossed!

[Char0093]

@Quasi_Stellar:

+1 for these remarks. If the airspace has plenty a friendlies, they may be engaging as well. For the sake of your airframe, stand off and see if the furball will sort itself. Scan for rouge outliers. Sending Slammers into a furball could result in friendly frags…

I’ve been in this Exact Situation with a BARCAP where I had a Heavy DPRK Strike Package enter my AoR. 4-Ship MiG-23 and 4-Ship Su-25 with I believe a 2-Ship MiG-21 in there too. Three Bases sent Scramblers and I ended up Dodging 120s cause the AI Fired at the Furball with my 2-ship flight of F-16s and I think a 4-ship Sweep of RoK F-4s that got dragged into it. We’re all in Visual Range so you can see how bad this this ended up when the 120s started flying. In the End my #2 got Friendly Fragged and I believe 2 of the F-4s got friendly fired as well. I ended up evading but got hit by an enemy heater and had to abort and belly land on a friendly strip.

[Tazz]

So I ended up completing the mission as follows…

Our two-ship took off, stayed low (~200 feet) and immediately turned due south. We kept going due south, towards the coast, until the MiG-29A group was the closest bandit to us, at about 25 miles west. Hugging the mountains, we turned west but as we did, some AI must have bagged the MiG-29s because they just vanished. Climbing up to about Angels 25, I turned north towards Taegu.

We were now approaching the MiG-23ML two-ship from their 5 o’clock position. At about 15 miles, I locked onto the leader. At that point, the MiG-23ML should have turned north in full speed to out run any missiles but instead he started to turn towards me.
Fox three medium, that soon went pitbull so I locked up his wing man and repeated the same and immediately throttled back and crank left. Both Floggers were hit. The MiG-21MF four-ship was now about 10 miles at our 9 low, I unleashed my AI wing man who takes out the leader with an AIM-120 and a second MIG-21MF with an AIM-9X. I circle the group, who pass me and slice down into them, ending up behind a MIG-21MF. Uncaged Fox Two and he’s done for. His buddy is trying to split low and run for home but a second AIM-9X shot quickly takes care of that. I landed at Taegu with about ~300 on the fuel gauge but both jets returned safely, with 4 + 2 kills. However I never found out who took out those MiG-29As.

[LorikEolmin]

@Tazz:

So I ended up completing the mission as follows…

Our two-ship took off, stayed low (~200 feet) and immediately turned due south. We kept going due south, towards the coast, until the MiG-29A group was the closest bandit to us, at about 25 miles west. Hugging the mountains, we turned west but as we did, some AI must have bagged the MiG-29s because they just vanished. Climbing up to about Angels 25, I turned north towards Taegu.

We were now approaching the MiG-23ML two-ship from their 5 o’clock position. At about 15 miles, I locked onto the leader. At that point, the MiG-23ML should have turned north in full speed to out run any missiles but instead he started to turn towards me.
Fox three medium, that soon went pitbull so I locked up his wing man and repeated the same and immediately throttled back and crank left. Both Floggers were hit. The MiG-21MF four-ship was now about 10 miles at our 9 low, I unleashed my AI wing man who takes out the leader with an AIM-120 and a second MIG-21MF with an AIM-9X. I circle the group, who pass me and slice down into them, ending up behind a MIG-21MF. Uncaged Fox Two and he’s done for. His buddy is trying to split low and run for home but a second AIM-9X shot quickly takes care of that. I landed at Taegu with about ~300 on the fuel gauge but both jets returned safely, with 4 + 2 kills. However I never found out who took out those MiG-29As.

Niiice

[Axe]

Excellent !!!

[Frederf]

Makes sense that you can freely use low altitude when over friendly territory.

[thereisnotime]

I alwys love reading mission reports and a good virtual pilot narrative.

[JOKER_duke]

please see sorting Plan:

[Blu3wolf]

Well, I always like a good read of P-825

[Frederf]

I find that with human pilots it’s best to have one shooter and one non-shooter. You can much better to sort-coordinate with yourself than between two people. The non-shooter’s workload is less and TWS/TTS (I’m trying to get in the habit of TTS instead of TWS so I don’t accidentally step to someone unrelated) makes shooting multiple easy. The weapons remain balanced.

[Blu3wolf]

Call it if its heavy