Why so many SA-10 :)
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I honestly doubt its that simple for the SA-10 operator. Not saying its impossible though.
Intel coming from the sam simulator developer suggests otherwise. Apparently it was the recommended procedure against an incoming ARM to engage it. Of course, I agree with you, being a soviet cold war design, engaging it succesfuly may not be as simple be as only pushing one button
And as Striker says, then you have the SHORAD as a second defense.
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I highly doubt that even in RL S300s engage HARMs per se They (S300/PMU/PMU2 operators) shoot two missiles to boost hit probability, it being not terribly high apparently They might see it coming yes but shooting a missile at itâŚnah The âbigâ batteries have support batteries with high rate of fire guns and agile SAM, in fact thatâs the support batsâ job - shoot low flyers and HARMs. I havenât heard about an AGM88 been shot down though, have you?
Strange comment especially you are Bulgarian. Bulgaria operates S-300 which is capable to detect and engage incoming missiles. During the AF happened the first AGM-88 launch on a Bulgarian Su-300 PMU. The operators detected the incoming missile and turned off the radar but the the launch was offered by the system as I know. The creator of the SAMsim told me this. (Hpasp)
Yes but whatâs the engagement range ? 20mm, 23mm even 30mm ( GAU8 ) shells donât travel accurately for more than 1.5km (from a stationary platform), which means that from the moment the AGM88 enters the engagement envelope of the guns the AAA have around 1.5-1.8 seconds to shoot it down
In long range engagement in terminal phase the speed of an AGM-88 is just barely supersonic or can be even high transsonic⌠This means about 300-350 m/s speed. If the fire control system and radar is able to detect and track target it can try shot down with 3-4 second long bursts.
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The Tunguska also has missiles, so itâs not guns only. Engagement range for missiles is of course longer than gun range.
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In long range engagement in terminal phase the speed of an AGM-88 is just barely supersonic or can be even high transsonic⌠This means about 300-350 m/s speed. If the fire control system and radar is able to detect and track target it can try shot down with 3-4 second long bursts.
How much ammo does 3-4 seconds use, 30%? And this means youâll need 4 AGM-88âs? Or 12, with the 8 missiles? ( Does it only use a single missile each time?)
Edit; Forgot about the missiles, it has more than 2.
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How much ammo does 3-4 seconds use, 30%? And this means youâll need 4 AGM-88âs? Or 6, with the 2 missiles?
I canât reall from my mind but the total ammo qty. of Tunguska is about 1000 rounds. Air defense units always have multiple vehicles so if you meet a Tunguska or any SHORAD unit you can explect 2-4. So if you assign one Tug. unit to defend one S-300PMU - which also can engage ARMs - you can have a very strong layered AD⌠Also do not forget that how hard is launch missiles that all arrive within the same 6-10 sec in terminal phaseâŚ
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In long range engagement in terminal phase the speed of an AGM-88 is just barely supersonic or can be even high transsonicâŚ
Yes, youâre right about that, I apologize for the incorrect statement Still - have you seen or read in any form an AGM88 been shot down by either a gun or a missile? Curious.
Strange comment especially you are Bulgarian. Bulgaria operates S-300 which is capable to detect and engage incoming missiles. During the AF happened the first AGM-88 launch on a Bulgarian Su-300 PMU.
This is a false information! No NATO asset has ever shot a round of ammunition at a Bulgarian military installment, at least no official data is present to account for it! It is pure speculation either on your or anybody elseâs part! It is a fact that an AGM88 crashed on a civilian house in the Gorna Banya district in Sofia but the missile has been identified later as a stray round fired at a Serbian SAM near the Serbian town of Pirot!
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Yes, youâre right about that, I apologize for the incorrect statement Still - have you seen or read in any form an AGM88 been shot down by either a gun or a missile? Curious.
Never happened so far because US SEAD capabilty so far never have faced with âdouble digitâ Russian/Soviet SAM/AD system.
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Oh, you are all great
Thanks very much for these inputs, thatâs more I have asked for and worth saving separately. I will try all this out in TEs to get on fire⌠HARMS, yes, how could I forget these. Actually I was shot down by flying very low with hard G turns, trying to lead the missile towards an obstacle or the ground, but BOOM, no go.
For sure, I will have to carefully adapt my waypoints and using all recon and symbology on the map prior of taking off.Thanks !!
XenonS -
â> 70nmâ thatâs a bit on the long side, me thinks
73nm vs SA-2. Launch and leave tactics with FCR not emitting. shrugs
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@mookar:
Yes, youâre right about that, I apologize for the incorrect statement Still - have you seen or read in any form an AGM88 been shot down by either a gun or a missile? Curious.
This is a false information! No NATO asset has ever shot a round of ammunition at a Bulgarian military installment, at least no official data is present to account for it! It is pure speculation either on your or anybody elseâs part! It is a fact that an AGM88 crashed on a civilian house in the Gorna Banya district in Sofia but the missile has been identified later as a stray round fired at a Serbian SAM near the Serbian town of Pirot!
Here is a picture about impact and the missile. This is not a SAM, the size of the wreck, the shapes and markng are totally makes totally clear, this was an AGM-88.
http://forum.index.hu/Article/viewArticle?a=131692716&t=9120320 -
Missile was misinformed. That was Samâs house.
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@Red:
you can
I tried & I canât.
In TE 63nm was the best case. And that was @ 31kft and above MK1.2The original poster need help avoiding SA-10 threats in HIS campaign experience.
Now its about who has the âbiggest missileâ
Not helpful to the average âJoeâ pilot who now thinks in campaign conditions he can shoot AGM-88 at 70nm out and be effective. Wonât do much for His ego or His planning skills.
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73nm vs SA-2. Launch and leave tactics with FCR not emitting. shrugs
âshrugsâ thatâs helpfulâŚâŚnot, did you mod your TTL?
Edit OK. SA-10 as per original post.
69nm @ Mark 1.49 & 35Kft, how does this help the original poster? Whatever.
He wanted to know how to stay alive while doing his patrols ect.
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I tried & I canât.
In TE 63nm was the best case. And that was @ 31kft and above MK1.2The original poster need help avoiding SA-10 threats in HIS campaign experience.
Now its about who has the âbiggest missileâ
Not helpful to the average âJoeâ pilot who now thinks in campaign conditions he can shoot AGM-88 at 70nm out and be effective. Wonât do much for His ego or His planning skills.
Agreed
but - although thatâs TE and less than 70Nm
it scoredThe point that is helpful to the OP is the following:
the BMS harm is capable of much longer range than the actual BMS in range cues
Thatâs valid in both TE and campaign and the actual distance is irrelevant, we are WAY above the in range cues
and certainly that will change tactics and help him stay alive in his SEAD part of the campaign -
@Red:
Agreed
but - although thatâs TE and less than 70Nm
http://www.flybms.org/viperdriver/Pilots/Darkman/images/PET10/PET10Darkman2.jpg
it scoredThe point that is helpful to the OP is the following:
the BMS harm is capable of much longer range than the actual BMS in range cues
Thatâs valid in both TE and campaign and the actual distance is irrelevant, we are WAY above the in range cues
and certainly that will change tactics and help him stay alive in his SEAD part of the campaignNever knew you could launch a HARM outside the LP envelope. Way beyond from what I am seeing here. IMHO, that needs to get fixed.
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Never knew you could launch a HARM outside the LP envelope. Way beyond from what I am seeing here. IMHO, that needs to get fixed.
There are two separate things : make sure the missile behaves like the RL one (range, max speed, etcâŚ) ; and make sure the range cues actually indicates what the missile is capable of.
As the British say : wait and seeâŚ
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afaik, the range cues are a bit inaccurate. Fox1âs will give you the LOSE TOI cue and hit their target without a problem, and Fox3âs are able to go quite a bit further than indicated, especially when lofting (the DLZ will give you a loft angle, but the DLZ does not reflect the additional range a lofted missile has)
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There are two separate things : make sure the missile behaves like the RL one (range, max speed, etcâŚ) ; and make sure the range cues actually indicates what the missile is capable of.
As the British say : wait and seeâŚ
Behave like the real one? I donât think you could do that. But, more ârealisticâ would be more appropriate.
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cues for amraam, agm130 and jsow just to name a few are often inaccurate; countdown to pitbull and WEZ. That said the 35nm bubble of the SA10 is for me NOT for the SA10, as I cannot lock it with JSOW over 35nm but I can with HARM and even then if I stray too far away say in a defensive move my missile may miss or then again it may hit; at least the HARM. In campaign with Veteran AAA setting I can lock and kill the SA10 before it hits me if I stay within the 35 mile bubble after launching HARM hence I wait for a audible rwr warning, launch the HARM, dive and pop up continuously to maintain itâs interest in me then get the kill almost 100pk. Now if I am on a strike mission, or barcap or any *****in mission and have no harms or JSOW and get spiked, I immediately if not sooner gain separation and fly around that fat bastard. This way I live to fly another day.
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To the OP - actually, patrol or fighter escort ops should be performed on a âSAM cleanâ battlefield, escorting a flight in a SA10 environment is all 'round dangerous for every member of that flight. Clean the area you are to perform sweep/escort/patrol at of SA10 first and foremost, then everything else.
the BMS harm is capable of much longer range than the actual BMS in range cues
Yes but does the DLZ(?) of the HARM become âdynamicâ (change itâs size) to emphasize on this?