AAR Real life vs BMS vs DCS
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First of all in no way i want to start any flame. I’m just genuinely curious about which AAR is closer to real life experience. I’ve always read that AAR in sims are harder than real life. Is that ONLY a matter of forces that you can feel IRL or also our some joystick designs (eg. no extension or nor force sensing) can increases the difficulty even further?
Regarding DCS, it seems to me that it is harder than BMS, but since i know that harder doesn’t automatically translated into more realistic. So i would like to know whether it is more realistic or not. In my understanding AAR was harder in old falcon and got easier with time, i recall having harder time back then.
I would like to have more feedback about this topic just for a matter of pure and genuine curiosity.
PS: I wasn’t sure where to post it so i hope moderators don’t get angry if i made any mistake
UPDATE:
I solved my issues by remembering how to do formation flight (quit flying after i moved and this lasted almost 4 years). Which means focus on the references on your cockpit rather than the HUD. Once i had my mind set i could perform AAR instantly in DCS. I had no problem in BMS but that’s because i was way more confident in BMS thus i was automatically focusing on what happen outside the cockpit, the opposite in DCS where i was focusing to much on the probe at forgetting the tanker. This lead me to many PIO (pilot induced oscillations).
Thanks to all who have replied and as i thought in terms of RL vs SIMS it is a mix of lower definition controls, real life FOV and body forces.
Lesson learned, never quit flying otherwise you might forget even simply things that was so obvious at that time.
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Its pretty easy in BMS. Just requires formation flying skills, and only average skills at that. Ive not tried in a real aircraft though, so I guess without something to compare it with, thats not such a useful data point.
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Its pretty easy in BMS. Just requires formation flying skills, and only average skills at that. Ive not tried in a real aircraft though, so I guess without something to compare it with, thats not such a useful data point.
indeed in BMS i have zero issues, even when that b****h starts to turn.
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A PID refueling helper has been coded in BMS , since 4.32 with AFM in order to better match the real difficulty (which is easier in RL life indeed than in simulation).
AFAIR , the helper only acts when you are connected, not before.
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I thought I remembered Boxer saying that had been remove in 4.33? Or am Im just completely misremembering?
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What’s PID refueling helper and how it works?
Is it one of those FLCS functions we can find in real F-16? or only on BMS?EDIT: hmm, so I found this. Do we have some kind of stabilize ‘helper’ enabled few seconds before boom connects to our F-16?
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?9331-Excuses-For-Not-Hooking-Up-with-Tanker&p=117328&viewfull=1#post117328 -
EDIT: hmm, so I found this. Do we have some kind of stabilize ‘helper’ enabled few seconds before boom connects to our F-16?
https://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/showthread.php?9331-Excuses-For-Not-Hooking-Up-with-Tanker&p=117328&viewfull=1#post117328That was in 4.32, and I’m pretty sure that is what Blu3wolf is referring to when he says it was removed in 4.33.
Regarding AAR itself, you’d need to separate boom and drogue operations. From what I’ve heard, drogue is (a lot) harder than boom operations. I have no personal experience with either, but I’ve been told that for the F-16 it’s easier IRL than it is in the sim. In part because of forces you can feel, but also what you can see (eye “resolution” and field of view mainly).
There are things that make it harder IRL as well though. Any atmospheric conditions will most likely have different effects on a large tanker than they do on a small F-16 or the boom, the boomer’s skill in a sim is always (near) perfect while it could be a rookie on his first OJT-day IRL, … -
As far as I’m concerned, AAR in BMS with an F16 is MUCH easier than AAR in DCS with an F/A18 and drogue.
Real Life …. …. only thing I tank in RL is an automobile, which is stationary at the time of connection.
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I personally find probe and drogue AAR in DCS to be easier than boom and receptacle AAR in either sim. I was able to plug up the Hornet on my first try and topped off without disconnects.
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I personally find probe and drogue AAR in DCS to be easier than boom and receptacle AAR in either sim. I was able to plug up the Hornet on my first try and topped off without disconnects.
what controls are you using? Warhog no mod? warthog + ext? something else?
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Last time I tried AAR in BMS4.32 I gave up after 1 hour. To me it was far the hardest task and I was able to do only using fixed throttle setting and very small step airbrake usage.
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AAR is about formation flying skills.
My experience is that is is harder in BMS than in the real Sim.
I have over 12 hours in the real Sim and I can hook up within 10 seconds after being cleared in.
So why is BMS harder. In my honest opinion its not BMS that is harder, but its because of the larger travel on the throttle in the real. Most of us, dont have the large travel. The larger travel makes it so much easyer to find the sweetspot.
I was told that some of the pilots dont want to do the AAR in the simulator because its to hard compared to RL AAR go figure
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Last time I tried AAR in BMS4.32 I gave up after 1 hour. To me it was far the hardest task and I was able to do only using fixed throttle setting and very small step airbrake usage.
You know I also didn’t knew to refuel for years, but ~4 years ago I decided to learn no matter what. So I took a week and tried AAR and tried and tried and tried, and got frustrated and shoot the tanker again and again, until it started to improve, slowly but constantly. And at some point I got it almost perfect. And these days, although its been months now since I even opened my HOTAS, it’ll take me very short time to connect, like riding a bicycle.
The problem at start (at least for me) was that I tried to separate things and to manage throttle, manage stick, then manage throttle again, and stick again etc etc, I tried to “refuel by HUD” but it’s very hard. The key eventually is to let go of the numbers and just try to fly formation with the tanker, then it becomes easier.
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Seems I am misremembering - here’s a link to Boxer saying the ‘assist’ you get is REDUCED in 4.33, not REMOVED.
I still cant find that older post I was referring to in that thread, though.
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After pre contact the key for me is to fly visual formation and the tanker lights.
The HUD and HUD frame is just another visual reference of the overall
picture/ view for me.
Cheers, :yo:
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Thats the point. If youre trying to learn it, switch off your HUD and fly the correct procedures. That means start to get into the observation area and close to the Tankers wing, after that ease off throttle a bit, glide right into the spot
Dee-Jay made a nice vid on that, with its help i did very easy on training AAR.Gesendet von meinem Redmi Note 5 mit Tapatalk
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In order to help folks that might find in the same difficult situation as me……a few feedback but first a few background information.
I used to play falcon for years, but then i quit until 2011 circa thanks to BMS. I kept flying and improving my knowledge since 2014 but then i had to move many times, changing country, and since then i never got into the mood to set everything back (game setup, hotas, mfd, etc…) and this situation lasted until like a week ago.
I came back to BMS and i could instantly execute an AAR. Then i decided to tried it in F-18 since i’ve been gifted with one…oh good… it was pretty painful…no success at all if not for 1 or 2 seconds but not without extreme struggles.
However as hero said AAR is all about formation flight and boom a flushback just hit me. In my experience formation flight is not about 90% HUD attention and 10% target attention and cockpit reference but rather the opposite (i simply forgot that), which lead exactly on why i had been instantly efficient in BMS and quite the opposite in DCS. In BMS i’m simply more confident and i hardly watch the HUD, instead i watch the tanker the whole time and thus its reference in the cockpit.
I decided to try again AAR in DCS with a whole completely different mind set and…instant positive result. Tried one more time and again instant result. Obviously i guess a better base than warthog original gimbal would only help but at least in my case the problem was more related to where my mind was focusing on thus reflecting how my input was applied.
EDIT: I know the HUD trick guys but i simply forgot how to fly. I thought that i would be able to jump in and be able to delivery the same performance like in old days…oh boy how wrong i was. Slowly i’m remembering everything. I guess i’ve learned a lesson here…never stop flying…
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I’ve always read that AAR in sims are harder than real life. Is that ONLY a matter of forces that you can feel IRL or also our some joystick designs (eg. no extension or nor force sensing) can increases the difficulty even further?
I fly BMS and DCS, and also I am able to refuel in both sims. But refuel in DCS with my OLD Hotas cougar is a pain in the ass due the extensive use and the AXE degradation, and som dead zones that the Stick have in the center where the movement must be soft not jumpy like now… In BMS is kind of the same, but a bit easies due the fact the boom is in charge to connect itself with you. Refuel the F18 in BMS is also a pain in the ass…
But everithing change when I change the HOTAS, or only the stick with a Saitek X56, brand as new, I easily refuel in bot sims in no time.
Here I did a video as a parody of that, NEW & OLD HOTAS
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You know I also didn’t knew to refuel for years, but ~4 years ago I decided to learn no matter what. So I took a week and tried AAR and tried and tried and tried, and got frustrated and shoot the tanker again and again, until it started to improve, slowly but constantly. And at some point I got it almost perfect. And these days, although its been months now since I even opened my HOTAS, it’ll take me very short time to connect, like riding a bicycle.
The problem at start (at least for me) was that I tried to separate things and to manage throttle, manage stick, then manage throttle again, and stick again etc etc, I tried to “refuel by HUD” but it’s very hard. The key eventually is to let go of the numbers and just try to fly formation with the tanker, then it becomes easier.
I ride 6000 km / year.
I tried lots of method. refuel by HUD was not the working I alway used the visual approach. I tried to keep minimal the relative speed by using the air brake. With throttle the fine speed control to me was 100% impossible.
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Then you probably dont have a very fine throttle adjustment possible. Just a stock cougar throttle works well for me. Small adjustments, for anything more than tiny position adjustments you will need to make multiple power changes to scoot around (power up to come forwards, power back to slightly above where it was to slow down into position).
