AI's disappear when I am 60 miles away from them

[Abe]

I have a question as to why my AIs are disappearing when I am greater than 60 miles from the nearest AI. I like to have other planes (AIs) sitting on the ramp when I get back from a mission. It makes the base look used and alive (eye candy).
First of all, I have modified these two settings in the falcon bms.cfg file from 2 minutes to 100 minutes.

set g_nReagTimer 100 // AB A/C despawn-> delay before disappearing (in min)
set g_nDeagTimer 100 // AB A/C spawn-> lead time before taxiing (in min)

The TEs I create are a very simple take off, attach target and return to base. I also include separate AI flights of 4 each KC135 Tankers, 4 each F15s and 4 each F16s. The AIs mission is to takeoff, fly a short flight and land, that’s it. As I am on my way to the target, I hear the radio chatter of the AIs and the Tower as the AIs land. I use keyboard command 8 to check on the AIs as they land and park. I have tried this scenario at several bases and the results appear to be the same. Everything works great as long as I do not go beyond 60 miles from the nearest AI. If I do go beyond 60 miles, all the AIs disappear right around 61 miles or more. I can no longer see them using keyboard command 8 and when I return to base, the base is empty. Also, the my mission time does not exceed the timers settings of 100 minutes. I am usually back to base within 30 minutes.

I was wondering if this is just the way it is or is it possible to increase this 60-mile limit so my missions might cover more area. I tried to attached my TE for an example but was unable to. Thank You.

[Obi1]

Same kind of issue when firing harm and then turn around.Harm will hit dirt because unit disappears because distance increased too much.Spoils cat and mouse game with Sa-10’sCheers Obi1

[molnibalage]

@Abe:

I have a question as to why my AIs are disappearing when I am greater than 60 miles from the nearest AI. I like to have other planes (AIs) sitting on the ramp when I get back from a mission. It makes the base look used and alive (eye candy).
First of all, I have modified these two settings in the falcon bms.cfg file from 2 minutes to 100 minutes.

set g_nReagTimer 100 // AB A/C despawn-> delay before disappearing (in min)
set g_nDeagTimer 100 // AB A/C spawn-> lead time before taxiing (in min)

The TEs I create are a very simple take off, attach target and return to base. I also include separate AI flights of 4 each KC135 Tankers, 4 each F15s and 4 each F16s. The AIs mission is to takeoff, fly a short flight and land, that’s it. As I am on my way to the target, I hear the radio chatter of the AIs and the Tower as the AIs land. I use keyboard command 8 to check on the AIs as they land and park. I have tried this scenario at several bases and the results appear to be the same. Everything works great as long as I do not go beyond 60 miles from the nearest AI. If I do go beyond 60 miles, all the AIs disappear right around 61 miles or more. I can no longer see them using keyboard command 8 and when I return to base, the base is empty. Also, the my mission time does not exceed the timers settings of 100 minutes. I am usually back to base within 30 minutes.

I was wondering if this is just the way it is or is it possible to increase this 60-mile limit so my missions might cover more area. I tried to attached my TE for an example but was unable to. Thank You.

This is because of the “bubble”, the Falcon has 3D world and 2D world because of the campaign engine. In older Falcon version was a bubble slider and you could change the bubble distance but I guess because of MP issues in BMS4 the slider has a static value and you cannot change it.

[Quasi_Stellar]

I would strongly recommend you find the Realism Patch 5 Manual… It is a great study of mechanics behind the legacy Falcons, some of which permeates today… Also, watch an ACMI in TacView to see the bubble at work, as Molni mentions

[Cloud 9]

@Quasi_Stellar:

Realism Patch 5 Manual

http://www.mediafire.com/file/5holvcm2nau3is6/Realism_Patch_5_Manual.pdf/file

C9

[Mav-jp]

Be careful RP5 manual is very outdated for many many things and some others were not masterized enough at that time

[I-Hawk]

@Obi1:

Same kind of issue when firing harm and then turn around.Harm will hit dirt because unit disappears because distance increased too much.Spoils cat and mouse game with Sa-10’sCheers Obi1

Units hit by AG missiles will disappear only when the player is ~65NM away from them. As the A-G missiles (all of them) use a temporary bubble so deagreggated units should stay so until the effective range of the player from the temporary bubble is larger than ~65NM, and then the temp bubble becomes uneffective.

There is however a way to change that distance, it would be wise to test such a change carefully before applying. AFAIK ITO is already having such change implemented in the campaing’s .AII file (Bubble distance is changed from 400K feet to 800K and that does it, you can see in ITO that the distance is ~130NM)

[Obi1]

I fire harm from high altitude and high speed, then turn around burners.Not measured total distance from target but I guess it could get >65 yes.Followed the missile and see it hit on airport but no ground vehicles seen there because of bubble.Will check this with ITO and see if I could test some values from there.Thanks!Obi1

[Dee-Jay]

(Bubble distance is changed from 400K feet to 800K and that does it, you can see in ITO that the distance is ~130NM)

One might expect 10%-20% FPS hit under some conditions and depending on other Units settings in DB. From extensive tests performed recently, Falcon4 is not made for long range standoff weapons unless you have a super computer.

[Obi1]

What I understand is you have basically 2 ‘circles’ in which units are deaggregated. around player and around missile. increasing distance for sure will keep the second bubble alive longer and this second bubble costs some fps. but it will not cost more fps, but it will just stay on for longer period.Cheers Obi1

[I-Hawk]

@Dee-Jay:

One might expect 10%-20% FPS hit under some conditions and depending on other Units settings in DB. From extensive tests performed recently, Falcon4 is not made for long range standoff weapons unless you have a super computer.

No D, please don’t confuse my suggested change here with the usual bubble distance of units.

Think this: What I suggest will ONLY affect temp-bubble deagreggated units (Which numbers of those will be pretty low to start with) that are at longer distance than 65NM from the player. Number of those at any given moment should be minimal so you will see 0 FPS change.
I flew campaign missions with value of 1M feet (instead of 400K) and so no bugs, but I suggest to do a serious cycle of testing for that if we really want to change it for good.

[Lukas]

@I-Hawk:

Units hit by AG missiles will disappear only when the player is ~65NM away from them. As the A-G missiles (all of them) use a temporary bubble so deagreggated units should stay so until the effective range of the player from the temporary bubble is larger than ~65NM, and then the temp bubble becomes uneffective.

There is however a way to change that distance, it would be wise to test such a change carefully before applying. AFAIK ITO is already having such change implemented in the campaing’s .AII file (Bubble distance is changed from 400K feet to 800K and that does it, you can see in ITO that the distance is ~130NM)

@Dee-Jay:

One might expect 10%-20% FPS hit under some conditions and depending on other Units settings in DB. From extensive tests performed recently, Falcon4 is not made for long range standoff weapons unless you have a super computer.

…or unless you are simulating smaller fights - I often make TEs flight vs flight with long range weapons (F-15, F-14 vs MiG-31 etc…) and 50NM deag distance for flights limits me…I tried to set 800000, but no change in AA combat.
Is the only option to play with DB values?
I wanna deag 100nm instead 50nm for flight vs flight.

[I-Hawk]

Setting bubble value per unit should work just fine. Just make sure you do it in the correct place in the DB, it should be the unit bubble and not other bubble values you may see in CT or vehicle pages.

[Mav-jp]

the SimbubbleSize, shall not be reduce below default current value.

It can be increase though ONLY if ann FineupdateRanges are set up correctly in the DB,

If some FineupdateRanges are not set up correctly, then increasing the SimBubbleSize WILL have an impact

hope that helps

[Lukas]

I am sorry to use F4Browse, but - open “Unit” - “Fighter - MiG-31(Type flight)” - the only field with bubble is “CT Ind (its CT for fighter)” then “Bubble Dist” (default 303800)….607600 new value OK?

When I open MiG-31 flight in Falcon Editor, I can not see bubble value for flight

Edit: I think I found it…is it this ?:
CT 286 “Fine update range 303800.0000”

[Lukas]

BTW I used to know quite a lot about bubbles, but forgot many relations - so fast question
if bubble value for MiG-31 flight is changed, does it mean:

• when flying MiG-31, I will deagg all flights 100nm around me regardless their bubble value…?
• Do I need to change value for all other flights (potentional targets) too…?

EDIT: ok, CT 286 (MiG-31) set to “607600”…I see packed F-15 flight labeled 115nm+ (far + short labels on), but I am able to lock on at 79-82nm distance and I can switch targets in TWS… AA-9 launched at around 65nm (it was impossible before)

EDIT2: yep, enemy flight really seems to be packed visualy in 3D, but “lockable” on radar screen and missiles are guided…when changed to missile view, F-15 flight deagregates at 50nm visualy (F-15s individual labels are clearly popping at 50nm and it is possible to switch enemy view to see them)

EDIT3: it seems this lockable (but visualy agregated) flight at 80nm is divided into individual targets on radar, but they are displayed cold, until flight deaggregated (targets turn to hot at 56 nm - still more than before).

EDIT4:
it seems only flight leader is able to lock 50nm+ with this settings! :mrgreen:

[MorteSil]

This post is deleted!

[Lukas]

yes, but I was never able to lock anything above 50nm in AA before. Tweak has some effect, but needs fine-tunning.

I need also longer awacs - current one is not interested in class A fighters 80nm away.

I dont say this all is good for campaign, but I would like to have it working in TEs. Default state is better than Falcon3.0 (enemies popping 20nm away), but still not ideal. 50nm first contact appearance is big limitation in modern air combat simulation (building your possition is essential).

[I-Hawk]

Lukas - Generally I think it’s the other way around, i.e if you change the MIG-31 bubble dist but you fly a MIG-31 all other ACs will deaggregate at their assigned distance (Because deaggregation is relative to the player position).
If you want to see the MIG-31 bubble change comes into play then you will need to fly other AC and target a MIG-31

And as Mortesil said, I think (REALLY not 100% sure) that AA radar cursors has temporary bubble indeed and once you put the cursor at something, the “area” of 1NM around it will deaggregate.

A-G wise, I implemented many types of temporary bubbles in 4.33:

• A-G radar cursor have a temp bubble
• TGP cursor will have a temp bubble
• SPI (if AGR or TGP is controlling the SPI but even if something else, e.g HUD slewing) cursor will have a temp bubble
• Maverick MFD have a temp bubble
• HAD/HAS displays have temp bubble
• All A-G missiles, including ones fired by AI, will hold a temp bubble around their target area. That was made mainly to keep long range missiles like SDB/JSOW to not hit dirt due to bubble limitations
• All bombs, including ones dropped by AI will hold a temp bubble.

[Lukas]

yep, you are right - I had a sucpiction it works opposite……but I did my test in Nordic (I have personal tweak with low-res textures, working very nice) and Nordic TE has too many teams (default one) and I was not able to find my F-15 :)… so I tried other side…and saw difference - caused probably by that 800 000 AII value I did not undo before…??
BTW mentioned AII file has some interresting rows!
[ATM]
….
MaxFlymissionThreat=85
MaxFlymissionHighThreat=100
MaxFlymissionNoThreat=10
MinSeadescortThreat=20
MinAvoidThreat=40
…
MinimumAWACSDistance = 110
MaximumAWACSDistance = 140
MinimumJSTARDistance = 180
MaximumJSTARDistance = 300
…

I tried from other side and i see Foxhound full labels deagg 100 nm (and can use enemy wiew “6” too).
Both targets are hot on radar screen (well orientated).