Question about the Block 52 force sensing stick which moves quite a bit
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Since I just purchased a FSSB R3 mod for my Warthog, I am still interested in how the slightly moving stick in the F16 works. Is it a mixture between force sensing and the displacement via hall effect sensors? Or are there just some springs to simulate the feeling of a traditional stick? And the very keen question is, is there something which could be done with the FSSB to bring it even closer to that behavior? I found this video of a F16 A in a museum. But that stick looks kind of broken to me. At 0:46
but has a lots of movement though.And this stick has very little movement. Is this how much you can expect from one of those sticks which were the really fixed ones like in the early block 3 F16s? At 1:51
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yes broken
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F16C:
Hardly any movement at all… I think there’s something off with that stick in the F16A, looks like it’s worn out but I can’t confirm as I never sat in one.
Curious to learn the mechanism in the FSSB R3 though… In the FCC3 we have spacers that allow you to set-up some movement, does it feature anything like that?
(Not that you really need any though)Thanks,
Twan -
This guy manipulating like mad a piece of history in a museum makes me sick
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TwanV the video you just posted, does it show one of the “moving” sticks or is it supposed to show the “fixed” stick? Looks about the same amount of movement like in the F16 Cockpit tour video I found. Well I own the FSSB mod since yesterday, but I could not figure out that there is spacers that could be changed. At the moment I have it mounted on a Monster Tech table mount. And what moves the most is the mount itself
hard to tell with the tablemount though.
But here is how much the FSSB is supposed to move -
nope, much less than that. Just found a nice video on facebook actually via vipergear. https://www.facebook.com/team.fighterjetsworld/?tn-str=k*F see video from October 25th. movement at the top of the SCC should be little less than 1/8" in all directions, so I think the FSSB movement of 3mm is OK for the 6lb force level. I seem to remember though that actual forces in the real jet are somewhat higher.
EDIT: O yes, much more
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=212&sid=8a7f46ab2d799dcf068939a77b6a63d6&start=30 31 lbs for 9 g’s!!EDIT: anyway, that is way to much force to use your force controlled stick responsibly. :lol: Enjoy, if its as good as the FCC it’s a world of difference (for the better)
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Thanks for the video. Wow that 1/8" movement made all the difference for the pilots complaining about the fixed stick. Unbelievable ; )
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@TwanV:
nope, much less than that. Just found a nice video on facebook actually via vipergear. https://www.facebook.com/team.fighterjetsworld/?tn-str=k*F see video from October 25th. movement at the top of the SCC should be little less than 1/8" in all directions, so I think the FSSB movement of 3mm is OK for the 6lb force level. I seem to remember though that actual forces in the real jet are somewhat higher.
EDIT: O yes, much more
http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=212&sid=8a7f46ab2d799dcf068939a77b6a63d6&start=30 31 lbs for 9 g’s!!EDIT: anyway, that is way to much force to use your force controlled stick responsibly. :lol: Enjoy, if its as good as the FCC it’s a world of difference (for the better)
Here is the video YT
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@TwanV:
In the FCC3 we have spacers that allow you to set-up some movement, does it feature anything like that?
Twan
Interesting. I didn’t realize that there is another force sensing mod besides the FSSB mod available for the Warthog. How much does it cost?
See how the stick moves to the left in that video? Looked also very close to the amount the real stick moved in the video aboveNo. I think there is no way to customize the displacement of the FSSB
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The FCC3 is no longer available, as it’s inventor/supplier passed away last year…if you want one, you’ll have to find someone that wants to part with one. I had planned to get a second one…but alas…it is a nice mod - Cougar only, but Warthog grip compatible, or for mounting on a replica SSC base - and relies on small washers to allow the 1/8" movement. Very nice device…but you still need to stabilize the grip itself against the retaining nut - the problem of the grip rocking due to wear against the stalk can spoil a force controller worse than with gimbals, IMO.
Once upon a time there was a thread over on ViperPits on scratch building/machining a 1:1 operating replica of the real SCC - complete set of drawings, which I think has been removed. All I can offer from seeing the drawings is that Hall devices/pots/etc. appeared to have nothing to do with it’s operation…it’s its own beastie.
Stevie
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Sad to hear he passed away.
When I compare how the real stick kinda “clicks” into position when pushed looks a lot more like the FCC3. The FSSB just bends but does not do “articulated” movements, hope you understand what I mean. My feeling is from watching the videos that the FCC3 is more realistic.
But what you’re saying is that although its built for the Cougar you could easily mount the Warthog on it as well?
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You can mount a Warthog grip on an FCC3, but you lose it’s CMS->dwn button action…which is a shame, because I use that as my shift key seeing as it has no actual function in the F-16. But - even though you can mount the grip I don’t believe you can mount the FCC3 to a Warthog base without making an adapter plate for it…the adapter plate that comes (came) with it is made to mount to the Cougar base; on it’s own it will mount to an SSC replica.
The FCC3 doesn’t do articulated movement either. The rubber grommets that mount between it and it’s base fixture provide a progressive resistance into the 1/8" deflection. By adjusting the mounting screw pressure on the grommets - and/or replacing the grommets themselves - you can also affect/adjust both the amount of deflection and the progressive resistance.
It really is a slick little device/mod…Arend was genius on this one (he developed a LOT more than just the FCC3), IMO. I never actually met him, but I still mourn his loss. He was a true asset to the community of cockpit builders.
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This guy manipulating like mad a piece of history in a museum makes me sick
Yeah they really need to stop letting meth users sit in those cockpits. lol I think I would have punched him if I was next in line.
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Isn’t that a bit of a pilot thing though? As far as I know the F16-pilot is a pitbuilders worst nightmare, with stories that go like:
Hobbyist prepares perfect replica of F-16 pit -> Meets an impressed pilot, let him have a go -> perfect replica pit completely ruined by military treatment of non-military grade hardware
dos gringos comes to mind. Anyway my point, that hardware should be able to withstand some abuse from kids.
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@TwanV:
Isn’t that a bit of a pilot thing though? As far as I know the F16-pilot is a pitbuilders worst nightmare, with stories that go like:
Hobbyist prepares perfect replica of F-16 pit -> Meets an impressed pilot, let him have a go -> perfect replica pit completely ruined by military treatment of non-military grade hardware
dos gringos comes to mind. Anyway my point, that hardware should be able to withstand some abuse from kids.
Its not that it is ruff on the parts. I am building my pit to last and with all the real panels and hardware I’m not too worried about a broken switch. Its more of its a museum piece and this guy is tugging on stuff like he does at night with his porno mags. Its like take it easy Tiger.
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Haha ok you have a point, he does seem to get a bit inappropriately switched on by all that hardware.
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OTOH…if he is a real pilot he’s been trained to do that. His expectations are that it is the same as what he flies, and he has little or no regard for the equipment beyond it’s ability to get him home safe and/or kill an opponent no matter how much he may “love” his airplane. That’s the biggest diff in attitude between most of us and a real fighter pilot, IMO.
I get to work with RL trainers on occasion and one of the more interesting things to do is to accompany an aircrew (especially a combat experienced one) to a trainer session…and watch the transition from co-worker to warrior - talk about “game face”…good grief. Even just talking to Viet Nam era air combat vets, you can that it don’t wash off. Ever. So yeah - I’m also building my pit with as many metal parts as I can as far as my controllers are concerned…because I’m already getting requests to try it from RL pilots, and it ain’t even half-built yet. Run away!..
Stevie
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OTOH…if he is a real pilot he’s been trained to do that. His expectations are that it is the same as what he flies, and he has little or no regard for the equipment beyond it’s ability to get him home safe and/or kill an opponent no matter how much he may “love” his airplane. That’s the biggest diff in attitude between most of us and a real fighter pilot, IMO.
I get to work with RL trainers on occasion and one of the more interesting things to do is to accompany an aircrew (especially a combat experienced one) to a trainer session…and watch the transition from co-worker to warrior - talk about “game face”…good grief. Even just talking to Viet Nam era air combat vets, you can that it don’t wash off. Ever. So yeah - I’m also building my pit with as many metal parts as I can as far as my controllers are concerned…because I’m already getting requests to try it from RL pilots, and it ain’t even half-built yet. Run away!..
Being ex special forces and now a police officer, I have been trained to do a lot of things with guns, compared to what I do during training. My environment will dictate how I operate with a gun. I would suspect pilots are the same.
Besides, he was flicking switches that I don’t think are manipulated in his line up cards. lol -
Being ex special forces and now a police officer, I have been trained to do a lot of things with guns, compared to what I do during training. My environment will dictate how I operate with a gun. I would suspect pilots are the same.
Besides, he was flicking switches that I don’t think are manipulated in his line up cards. lolWhen you’re able to get yourself Court Martialed for shooting expert on a Marine Corps Rifle Range , then have your 9 inch 500 yard target spotter mounted on the Base Commanders wall with a 5 round group you could cover with a 50 cent piece and clearly see where one bullet almost went straight through a hole before it with a M-16 one shot at a time with iron sights, then come see me, I was then asked to be a instructor I turned it down I wasn’t about to train people to be as good as me, June 1984 Court House Bay Marine Corps Rifle Range NC, , hopefully you are better trained when not to use deadly force.
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Being ex special forces and now a police officer, I have been trained to do a lot of things with guns, compared to what I do during training. My environment will dictate how I operate with a gun. I would suspect pilots are the same.
Besides, he was flicking switches that I don’t think are manipulated in his line up cards. lolIn my experience pilots tend to do a lot of things in the cockpit that isn’t exactly “on script”…FOREX - there is a lexicon among crew that you’re supposed to “only touch the shiny switches”. I did a mod once to an jet that had a switch in it that wasn’t connected to anything before I did the mod…and that switch was shiny (meaning it had been polished by leather gloved hands) even though it did nothing - nothing at all - before I modded the jet. And that mode was a FLeet system incorporation, so that switch did nothing across the entire Fleet until this installation and there wasn’t any “training” even to be associated previously.
We’ve had similar discussions over on VP about the white button on the gear lever and how pilots playing with it tends to wear out the solenoid in the gear box. So…in the cockpit, stuff happens…
Stevie
