F-16 Engine sound in cockpit.

[Delta]

Another video where you can hear the engine sound very well.

[Amraam]

Endless discussion : again this is without helmed and without ANR plug.

[Icarus]

This post is deleted!

[Dee-Jay]

@Delta:

Another video where you can hear the engine sound very well.

Yep … if you fly without helmet (which should never happen).

As Amraam said …

If you want to hear what the pilot actually hear … watch and listen this :

And now compare with this one (same aircraft) without helmet :

[TAC-1]

@Delta:

Another video where you can hear the engine sound very well.

Sounded a lot like Falcon AF, doesn’t it??

[Cali]

I’ve flown in a F-16 and you do not hear the engine. You would be surprised at how quiet it is in the pit.

[Red Dog]

and when you turn hard, you take 6 g, you feel the aircraft shaking and struggling against the G forces and you struggle yourself against the g forces…
when you pop the speedbrake, you feel the deceleration
when you engage the burner, you feel a kick in the ass
when you eject, you go to the flight surgeon to be checked out
when you crash, you die

all this we don’t have in a simulation, therefore the need for more physical feedback, like sounds
I do know a few nutcases flying with helmet, but i don’t know any nutcase flying the sim with helmet and earplugs
that argument always made me laugh

the secret is to find a good balance between those sounds (unrealistic but imho needed) and the environment to make the sim as close to reality as possible and try to stay out of pointless argument based on 100% realism that are totally unsuited for a sim environment

[Dee-Jay]

@Red:

the secret is to find a good balance between those sounds (unrealistic but imho needed)

100%

And IMO we have a VERY good balance in BMS compared to all previous Falcon4 versions by having the airflow sounds (feedback) of air-brakes when they are out, the shaking and struggling under high AOA, the difference of sounds when afterburners without exaggerating it at a point where not comm’s an be heard any more, the discreet tires sceetch at touchdown … etc … and fortunately, no more mechanical sounds of air-brakes extensions/retractions nor the LOUDLY gears extension/retraction that you never hear nor feel IRL!

It is hard to imagine how it is on a jet if you never flew on-board (very different to anything I’ve ever imagined before) but (unfortunately) very difficult to compare with a single or twin engine prop a/c which are much louder/vibrating and much much more sensible to movements and turbulences (lower speed) … being tightened in the ejection seat makes a big difference and once you are accustomed to G forces and a/c acceleration (within a certain limit of course), you ever do not notice them anymore (brain filter stuff)

Even among RL jet pilots there might be some differences of feeling between ppl who paid attention to those details and the one who trust their souvenirs only (brain filter/bias again) …

Always been a very interesting and passionate subject

when you crash, you die

One day on my RL simulator flying for the fun, we have crashed the plane … on the RL sim the carbine just freeze and goes dark and all sounds stop, believe me, it was much more “impressive” or “unpleasant” than in our BMS which is switching to an external view playing a big BOOOM sound. Feeling was weird because everything stops! … I think it would be nice to have the same in BMS (sudden black screen + sounds stop), then having to press ESC then resume or exit … it would be … well … I do not find the words … lets say “traumatic”

[Blu3wolf]

@Red:

and when you turn hard, you take 6 g, you feel the aircraft shaking and struggling against the G forces and you struggle yourself against the g forces…
when you pop the speedbrake, you feel the deceleration
when you engage the burner, you feel a kick in the ass
when you eject, you go to the flight surgeon to be checked out
when you crash, you die

all this we don’t have in a simulation, therefore the need for more physical feedback, like sounds
I do know a few nutcases flying with helmet, but i don’t know any nutcase flying the sim with helmet and earplugs
that argument always made me laugh

the secret is to find a good balance between those sounds (unrealistic but imho needed) and the environment to make the sim as close to reality as possible and try to stay out of pointless argument based on 100% realism that are totally unsuited for a sim environment

In fairness, you lack other cues too.

When you pull up into a 60 degree climb, you feel like you are in the vertical.
When you pull up into a 10 degree climb you feel like you are accelerating.
When you accelerate, you feel like you are starting to climb.
When you descend you feel like you are slowing down.
When you decelerate you feel like the nose is dropping.
when you pass through 13 degrees AoA, the jet shakes a little.

Its about the same as installing a beeper to indicate that your speedbrakes are open. Sure, its a cue, but its not the same cue you would get in the real jet. Likewise the acceleration/pitch coupling that you experience in a real aircraft due to the inner ear - you cant replicate that without a full motion sim - and adding beeps or sounds as indicators isnt the way to approach those, either.

[RuskyV]

These same points are talked about all over the sim racing comunity and are essentially the same thing. There is a point where you need some sort of replacment to the seat of you pants feel that you would get from either flying or driving. The simple fact that you dont get those sensations can be picked up a little with maybe small head motions or wind sounds that my indicate high AoA. Or in sim racing a degree of sound as you approach slip angle.
They are not 100% realistic because thats impossible but i can be made more belivable with some substitued sounds and motion not akin to the real thing.

One guy tried to argue the case of sound in a well know space sim forum, he was complaining about the fact there was sound in space! After getting real pissed at everyone someone said " just turn you volume off and breathe through a paper bag". Realisum dosent always mean fun.

[Dee-Jay]

@Blu3wolf:

Iyou cant replicate that without a full motion sim

… and even with a full motion sim you can’t, basicaly because everything if more about linear accelerations related rather than angular acceleration/position.

Wide screen and/or full view is more suitable for jets airplanes than 6DOF motion cockpits (which are more suitable for commercial liners and helicopters).

@RuskyV:

Realisum dosent always mean fun.

100%

[Dee-Jay]

@RuskyV:

These same points are talked about all over the sim racing comunity and are essentially the same thing. There is a point where you need some sort of replacment to the seat of you pants feel that you would get from either flying or driving. The simple fact that you dont get those sensations can be picked up a little with maybe small head motions or wind sounds that my indicate high AoA. Or in sim racing a degree of sound as you approach slip angle.

… with a major problem for flight simulators because of the high occurence of sensorial illusions which happens very often in flight. Sometimes in the plane, you might think you are wing level and pitching up but actually being 3/4 inverted and ptiching down to the earth …

[Blu3wolf]

@Dee-Jay:

… and even with a full motion sim you can’t, basicaly because everything if more about linear accelerations related rather than angular acceleration/position.

Wide screen and/or full view is more suitable for jets airplanes than 6DOF motion cockpits (which are more suitable for commercial liners and helicopters).

100%

Id beg to differ

@Dee-Jay:

… with a major problem for flight simulators because of the high occurence of sensorial illusions which happens very often in flight. Sometimes in the plane, you might think you are wing level and pitching up but actually being 3/4 inverted and ptiching down to the earth …

you might want to qualify that by pointing out that they happen very often in instrument conditions - but if you can see where you are going, and you can see the ground, then your eyes override these false sensations. (obvious to you and me, maybe not to the guy you pointed it out to)

[Delta]

I just thought the sound while takeoff sounded nice ;).

[Dee-Jay]

@Blu3wolf:

Id beg to differ

lol … ok … but what you are showing is not the classic 6DOF motion cockpit that we are used to know and even in your example, the guy is never under a sustainded 6Gs

EDIT: Thank you for the vis, I didn’t knew this technology execpt in theme park http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxct6c_danse-avec-les-robots-martin-solveig_news

[Dee-Jay]

@Delta:

I just thought the sound while takeoff sounded nice ;).

It is

[Dee-Jay]

@Blu3wolf:

but if you can see where you are going, and you can see the ground, then your eyes override these false sensations.

Not always … brain can be a ****ing enemy.

[Blu3wolf]

@Dee-Jay:

lol … ok … but what you are showing is not the classic 6DOF motion cockpit that we are used to know and even in your example, the guy is never under a sustainded 6Gs

EDIT: Thank you for the vis, I didn’t knew this technology execpt in theme park http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxct6c_danse-avec-les-robots-martin-solveig_news

Actually the UMS -is- capable of six G sustained.

[Dee-Jay]

@Blu3wolf:

Actually the UMS -is- capable of six G sustained.

Ok … understand how now

[Hornet]

@Dee-Jay:

what the pilot actually hear … watch and listen this :

And now compare with this one (same aircraft) without helmet :

Well… shouldn’t BMS replicate the plain environment without simulating a helmet then? I mean, if somebody want’s the sounds to be filtered by earplugs and a helmet he simply could …well… wear earplugs and a helmet, huh?! :mrgreen:

Btw. if someone really want’s to die by lawndarting the jet in BMS, with a little effort I think he can get this done as well by himself

:drink: