How to choose a flight altitude?

[Blunder]

Hey all,

I have about 1500 hours in various forms of Falcon, but recently realized I don’t have the answer to a pretty basic question. Hope you can help.

When in enemy territory, obviously we want to stay well above the MANPAD engagement zone. And clearly it’s always desirable to save fuel if you can, which suggests that flying higher is better.

But being very high makes it very hard to spot incoming SAMs, hit the deck in a hurry, pull sustained Gs in an evasive maneuver, etc.

So the question: when in enemy territory where SAMs are a serious threat, what’s a reasonable altitude to fly at? I’ve always used FL280, but now I’m thinking that’s too high. Maybe FL200 is better.

Thoughts?

[molnibalage]

FL15-18 before the Tor era, because you can fly higher than eng. zone of any SHORAD - or on endge of their eng zone - but with small dive you have still enough kineitc energy to defeat old SAMs such as SA-2/3/4/5/6.

(Of course considering RL eng. zones and kinematics but most of SAM systems has very inaccurare eng zone in BMS4.)

[Red Dog]

I’m always down low
i can deal with shorad and AAA because when i enable the search function of the RWR I can circumvent them or put a mountain between them and me
and even if i’m close, they are usually a low threat. fast and low is always difficult to hit.
Not saying it never happened, just that my % chance of coming back from the mission is way better at low level than at hi level and certainly at mid level

then it’s popup and outta dodge at low level again.
my profile for AG is very often hi lo hi

[Blu3wolf]

@Blunder:

Hey all,

I have about 1500 hours in various forms of Falcon, but recently realized I don’t have the answer to a pretty basic question. Hope you can help.

When in enemy territory, obviously we want to stay well above the MANPAD engagement zone. And clearly it’s always desirable to save fuel if you can, which suggests that flying higher is better.

But being very high makes it very hard to spot incoming SAMs, hit the deck in a hurry, pull sustained Gs in an evasive maneuver, etc.

So the question: when in enemy territory where SAMs are a serious threat, what’s a reasonable altitude to fly at? I’ve always used FL280, but now I’m thinking that’s too high. Maybe FL200 is better.

Thoughts?

You sorta need to tailor it to what assets are available and the general threat level, IMO. When SAMs are a serious threat, Ill typically plan a smaller mission (number of birds) and rely on NOE flying, hopefully with a flight plan which provides direct terrain masking from known threats.

In friendly territory, Ill pick a cruise altitude to maximise flight range, so as to minimise fuel burn during climb and cruise. Over enemy territory, my options are a penetration descent to NOE flight, or to fly higher than the max engagement altitude of as many threats as possible, whilst maintaining enough air to bite into if a break turn is needed. Basically for me this means I aim to fly either NOE or at an altitude more than 24 thousand AGL and less than 28 thousand AMSL.

Flying into known SAM battalions at altitude is just asking for trouble, so I wont plan a mission to go over them. If its needed and SEAD cannot be tasked, then I start looking at NOE flight instead.

[Ahmed]

I would fly med-high and task ECM and SEAD.

If not available I just cancel those ‘suicide missions’ unless the target’s destruction justifies a high ARL. In that case Hi-Lo-Hi may be the best option.

[Dee-Jay]

IRL your assigned FL is defined in the ATO and ACO.

[Blu3wolf]

@Dee-Jay:

IRL your assigned FL is defined in the ATO and ACO.

And with good reasons, like assigning specific corridors for friendlies to comply with, making target identification easier.

Still, as falcon doesnt handle this like IRL, I for one have no qualms planning set altitudes which maximise mission effectiveness rather than simplifying target ID requirements, when the AI isnt going to benefit from it anyway.

[caper]

If there’s no degrade for look-down-shoot-down radar modeling, your a “big dog” at low FL against medium range AAM.

I still like 22kagl to stay above of AAA. No experimentation in BMS.

Egress you can get better fuel range above +FL300.

[Amraam]

depend of the mission. AG mostly between FL220 and FL280, Air to Air between FL300 and 450.

[seojoonho001]

Wow, I didn’t know anyone flew higher than FL400 in missions…

I find it hard to maneuver against R-77s when I am that high. Any tricks? (assuming that I launched my slammer and the enemy aircraft sent r77 my way)

[Blu3wolf]

@seojoonho001:

Wow, I didn’t know anyone flew higher than FL400 in missions…

I find it hard to maneuver against R-77s when I am that high. Any tricks? (assuming that I launched my slammer and the enemy aircraft sent r77 my way)

before you get inside E pole, perform a slice down to low altitude by rolling into about 135 degrees of bank and pulling for the deck, dropping stores if necessary. Once established on your new (reciprocal) heading, ‘drag’ the active missile cue between the 0730 and 0430 positions on the RWR. After 4 to 6 roll reversals in this manner, re-establish the reciprocal heading and climb. You should be maintaining full AB during the evasion.

Once the M warning fades from the RWR, you can turn back into the attack heading if your scope is clean. If you have another element that is nose hot on attack heading, they can give you the information on when to turn hot again. You need to turn hot with enough distance from the threat to be able to turn cold again without getting inside E pole.

[Agave_Blue]

@Blunder:

How to choose a flight altitude??

Use the force Blunder …. let the flight altitude choose you.

[Cik]

@seojoonho001:

Wow, I didn’t know anyone flew higher than FL400 in missions…

I find it hard to maneuver against R-77s when I am that high. Any tricks? (assuming that I launched my slammer and the enemy aircraft sent r77 my way)

part of the advantage of being 40k+ is that very few SU-27s will fly that high. you will almost always have a pretty big first launch margin, and the fact that you can effectively move at like mach 1.5~ while running burner helps too. if they do try to climb into you, it’s very likely that they’ll just spend all of their energy in the climb.

if you are launched upon and not going very fast you’re probably dead. adders will fly forever at that altitude, and since your engine power is relatively low you’re not going to get up to speed very fast.

for this reason, it’s very unwise to be so high unless you’re pretty sure you will be able to firstlaunch and then run ASAP.

[RightStuff]

@caper:

If there’s no degrade for look-down-shoot-down radar modeling, your a “big dog” at low FL against medium range AAM.

AFAIK LookDown/ShootDown was modelled since the old RP-days of Falcon4. There was an Excel provided to calculate the ranges.

I don’t think BMS made a step back and kicked the implementation of LD/SD.

[D_Fens]

Sry this is probably a dumb question, but what does NOE mean? I stunbled at this a few times recently, but so far couldn’t figure out the meaning

[Dee-Jay]

Near On Earth. (If I’m not wrong)

[Cloud 9]

@D_Fens:

Sry this is probably a dumb question, but what does NOE mean? I stunbled at this a few times recently, but so far couldn’t figure out the meaning

@Dee-Jay:

Near On Earth. (If I’m not wrong)

Nap-of-the-Earth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nap-of-the-earth

C9

[caper]

what does ‘nap’ mean?
nap = near ?

[Obi1]

Nap of the earth.

Too late;-)

[Blunder]

Thanks everyone for these quality replies!

“Nap” usually refers to the fuzzy texture of materials like carpet, felt, suede, etc. I guess the phrase is intended to suggest the earth’s surface has a similar character.