AGM-45 vs AGM-88
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I am sure this topic has been brought up some times but it puzzled me very much today because looks like the Shrike is as good as the HARM in going after the target except that the Shrike doesn’t come with a POD. What the difference between the two, and why the F-16s in BMS can carry four of one but just two of the other?
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Shrike was a smaller missile used a lot during the Vietnam war……had a much smaller warhead and range and was retired (US) around 1992.
There are a lot of references to AGM-45 being added to late 1980s F-16s…suspect someone had a loadout sheet showing 4 could be carried.
HARM came in mid 80s and US F-16s have only been able to use it from pylons 3/7. Technically US F-16s can carry them on 4/6 (flight certified) but cannot fire them…whether that applies to all users is a bit difficult to say.
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Shrike was garbage IRL.
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Shrike was only usable in what HARM would call HAS. There was no lofting it at a preplanned steerpoint like HARM. HARM can go 70nm. Shrike was less than 10.
Also HARM works without the HTS pod. It just works better with it.
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Shrike was only usable in what HARM would call HAS. There was no lofting it at a preplanned steerpoint like HARM. HARM can go 70nm. Shrike was less than 10.
Also HARM works without the HTS pod. It just works better with it.
the firing range seem to be useless in BMS since it only hits the target whenever their radar is on, and it goes on only if the jet is within 10nm
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Shrike was only usable in what HARM would call HAS. There was no lofting it at a preplanned steerpoint like HARM. HARM can go 70nm. Shrike was less than 10.
Also HARM works without the HTS pod. It just works better with it.
HTS pod don’t seem to be an advantage since HTS can also miss the firing radar.
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the firing range seem to be useless in BMS since it only hits the target whenever their radar is on, and it goes on only if the jet is within 10nm
Completely disagree. Range serves its purpose quite well.
Better to say that Anti Radiation missiles are useless at the range. Practice in real world is likely only with captive practice munitions.
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the firing range seem to be useless in BMS since it only hits the target whenever their radar is on, and it goes on only if the jet is within 10nm
Well the Nam Shrike had a range of 7-10 miles (probably more with altitude). Yes the SAM guy only had to switch the Fansong FCR off and the Shrike would lose the target.
There was about 12 different version of this missile….mainly due to the fact it was not programmable.
The bigger AGM-78 STARM came in to solve some of these issues…this was never on F-16s outside of test loadings AFAIK.
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About the differences between Shrike ( AGM-45 ) and HARM ( AGM-88 ) missiles, I could hardly conclude they are the same - even the last one could be a developped version of the original idea realized and tested in the Vietnam war with the Shrike for the first time.
About the results, neither the more recent one made ‘the miracle’.
According to what has been released publicly, I remember, I learned, not without surprise, that in Operation Desert Storm AGM-88s have returned a variable 25-33 percent successful hits against Iraqi targets. Nothing more.Last, about the question “what should I choose among Mav and HARM?”, well…
personally, I don’t know, due that there is not a theoretically predictable solution, to me at least.
My decision it’s always related to the goals to be achieved and the tactical situation to face, and as more properly as possibile, if anyone doesn’t mind of course.
Sometimes I choosed to load some good old cluster bombs instead. And this told all, I guess.Just my one cent, of course, nothing more, because I don’t have any feel to ‘teach’ anything to anyone here.
There are guys in this Community far more expert than that few I managed to become, I mean.With best regards.
"I told it Orville and Wilbur too: that thing will never fly"
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Completely disagree. Range serves its purpose quite well.
Better to say that Anti Radiation missiles are useless at the range. Practice in real world is likely only with captive practice munitions.I guess HARMs can be more useful with SA10s since these have a range of 40nm in BMS which is within HARM but not Shrike. That way I can shoot the HARM once within 40nm and do some maneuvers to stay within that range just to keep the radar on. This can’t be done with Shrike as getting as close as 10nm or closer means SA10 will win.
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SEAD missiles don’t kill SAMs, they suppress them. Notice how there is a predicted TOT on the POS page? The idea is that you and your wingman fire four HARMs that cover 13:15:00, 13:15:30, 13:16:00, and 13:16:30. In those two minutes the strike element has popped up, hit their target, and are egressing. Four missiles, zero hits, 100% mission success.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-45_Shrike
Note that the Shrike was effectively “tuned” to target a specific threat band - this means: a) you have to know what you are expecting, b) what you are shooting at has to keep it’s emitter up, and c) that’s ALL you can effectively shoot at with a given missile.
All this adds up to there being no “targeting pod” required for a Shrike because the missile is it’s own “targeting pod”.
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SEAD missiles don’t kill SAMs, they suppress them. Notice how there is a predicted TOT on the POS page? The idea is that you and your wingman fire four HARMs that cover 13:15:00, 13:15:30, 13:16:00, and 13:16:30. In those two minutes the strike element has popped up, hit their target, and are egressing. Four missiles, zero hits, 100% mission success.
This concept seems to be very difficult to grasp. That topic is coming back very often.
Everything you need to know and links in my Youtube channel, "About" section.
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This concept seems to be very difficult to grasp. That topic is coming back very often.
Not sure I totally understand the gamesmanship at play, irl … given the missiles cost almost US$1M apiece … why not just callout “Magnum!” on the UHF band and see if they’re listening? either (a) they switch off their radar (or keep it off) and you keep your $1M magic bullet. or (b) they don’t turn off the radar, then you go ahead and launch.
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I guess HARMs can be more useful with SA10s since these have a range of 40nm in BMS which is within HARM but not Shrike. That way I can shoot the HARM once within 40nm and do some maneuvers to stay within that range just to keep the radar on. This can’t be done with Shrike as getting as close as 10nm or closer means SA10 will win.
Would a Shrike even recognize a Flap Lid radar? (Not sure if/how these non-overlapping eras of technology are modelled in BMS… the same basic question came up recently wrt RWR capabilities in older a/c)
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Not sure I totally understand the gamesmanship at play, irl … given the missiles cost almost US$1M apiece … why not just callout “Magnum!” on the UHF band and see if they’re listening? either (a) they switch off their radar (or keep it off) and you keep your $1M magic bullet. or (b) they don’t turn off the radar, then you go ahead and launch.
$4M< a single modern fighter/bomber jet that each crew member had millions of dollars of training. Modern warfare is ridiculously expensive. Also modern SAM systems can actually see the HARMs coming at them and will attack them (as will happen in 4.35 now). So the Gulf War trick of just calling “Magnum” over the radio won’t work as well.
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Would a Shrike even recognize a Flap Lid radar? (Not sure if/how these non-overlapping eras of technology are modelled in BMS… the same basic question came up recently wrt RWR capabilities in older a/c)
In game it works just like a HARM using the seeker head to target sam.
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About the differences between Shrike ( AGM-45 ) and HARM ( AGM-88 ) missiles, I could hardly conclude they are the same - even the last one could be a developped version of the original idea realized and tested in the Vietnam war with the Shrike for the first time.
About the results, neither the more recent one made ‘the miracle’.
According to what has been released publicly, I remember, I learned, not without surprise, that in Operation Desert Storm AGM-88s have returned a variable 25-33 percent successful hits against Iraqi targets. Nothing more.Last, about the question “what should I choose among Mav and HARM?”, well…
personally, I don’t know, due that there is not a theoretically predictable solution, to me at least.
My decision it’s always related to the goals to be achieved and the tactical situation to face, and as more properly as possibile, if anyone doesn’t mind of course.
Sometimes I choosed to load some good old cluster bombs instead. And this told all, I guess.With best regards.
Alfred, the short answer to your question is-Shrike has all the weakness’ of HARM, not many of it’s strengths, and a lot less range.
When Brother Jackal and I have our Discord tactical discussions you’ll find him focused on the specific tactical situations. But , you also have to factor in what you enjoy. For example, I like the Viet Nam campaign because that is my Old School theater. In that I don’t mod TGP,HTS, or PGM’s. Just load up with Mk20’s and go to it. So, if you go into that old school kind of thing, load Shrikes.
The Mav vs. HARM question is another part of it. Once again, tactical situation and what do you want. For example, the US Navy doesn’t really do the Weasel Thing because their philosophy is they just want to keep the SAm’s busy in the few minutes a strike package is overhead . So, once again if you’re into that, load HARM. On the other hand, if you’re a DEAD Guy, then Mav’s or whatever all the way. Fire a HARM, you may get a hit, watch a Mav blow something up and as the saying goes, “if it’s in a million pieces it’s suppressed” -
This concept seems to be very difficult to grasp. That topic is coming back very often.
Classic SEAD vs, DEAD, Compadre
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$4M< a single modern fighter/bomber jet that each crew member had millions of dollars of training. Modern warfare is ridiculously expensive. Also modern SAM systems can actually see the HARMs coming at them and will attack them (as will happen in 4.35 now). So the Gulf War trick of just calling “Magnum” over the radio won’t work as well.
In Vietnam pilots would even fire a dumb rocket while calling magnum. It did not take long for NVA to figure out that this wasn’t the same as a Shrike and they kept their radars on. It looks different and flies different. In Allied Force 1000+ HARM were fired for 6 likely SA-6 kills.
Interesting documentary on Shrike and early HARM. AGM-88A were not so programmable too and had to be set according to threat on the ground. B or C model added in a lot more on-the-fly adjustment.
