Suggestion for database, data supply

[molnibalage]

Start with basic thing, dispensers modeling on different aircraft. Animation and qty either.

F-15C.

1:25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSL2UQ2_Kmg

Check how looks in BMS4. I made a new dispenser model closer to RL.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/cixau43nge3i3go/F-15_flare.mp4

http://youtu.be/jUPo5w1meGI

Other problem is the quantity. 4x2 dispenser, ALE-47 on F-15C and F-15E either.

Closer on an Hornet the dispenser.

I do not know how was calculated the current 120 chaff and 24 flare…

Chaff and flare qty. should be more or less the same, or exactly the same. Because of poor AI chaff and flare alway dropped even just radar guided engaged the F-15. AI uses all of flares quite quickly when attacked by for ex. an SA-2. Then comes even a poor IR guided missile…

So? How many flare or chaff can be loaded into one catridge? Always 5 x 6 = 30?
With 4/4 chaff/flare cartridges 120c/120f would be better or any other more balanced setting. 120/24 is completley useless.

(Especially with current modeling values. Most of IR missiles are strong. Except doble digit radar guided SAMs are very weak…)

More suggestion will come.

[Dee-Jay]

Still no changelog …

[molnibalage]

Changelog for a recommendation….?
If you wish…

file location: \data\sim\acdata
filename: f15c.dat

Original data nChaff 120
nFlare 24

FlarePos1 1.07 3.26 2.99
FlarePos2 1.07 -3.26 2.99
FlareVec1 0 0 0.000000001
FlareVec2 0 0 0.000000001

New data
**nChaff 120
nFlare 120

FlarePos1 1.07 3.26 2.99
FlarePos2 1.07 -3.26 2.99
FlareVec1 0 10 40
FlareVec2 0 -10 40**

Only question what should be the c/f qty. some sources says that in a “standard” cartridge contains 30 chaff or 15 flare. In this case 4/4 cartridge means 120/60. It should considered 2/6 –-> 60/90. It would be nice if can be set as in DCS.

[Dee-Jay]

This post is deleted!

[Skwabie]

i remember different flares vary in sizes, original data must have based on very large ones…?

btw iirc strike eagles have a couple more dispensers added?

[Guest]

Any UPDATE will release for new models and mods??

[molnibalage]

@Skwabie:

i remember different flares vary in sizes, original data must have based on very large ones…?

btw iirc strike eagles have a couple more dispensers added?

As I know USAF planned to use BOL rails on at least on Strike Eagles and two more cartridges in airframe. In BOL rails only chaff was planned to use, in cartirdges only flares.

Of course the change for F-15C should be applied on F-15A and E too. Text is the same, but f15a.dat and f15e229.dat should be tweaked. (I have to check how many F-15 dat file exist.)

[Skwabie]

lol do remember BOL… something like 640 chaffs on rails and 120 flares under belly. perhaps level non maneuvering adder dodging might work after all! O.O

[molnibalage]

BOL rail can be filled with flare or chaff either but “capsules” are much smaller as standarf 1 inch / 26 mm Russian flares. Today I will upload more video and recommendation for red jets.

[spit]

@molnibalage:

FlarePos1 1.07 3.26 2.99
FlarePos2 1.07 -3.26 2.99
FlareVec1 0 0 0.000000001
FlareVec2 0 0 0.000000001

These settings are twice in the old dat file (dispenser1 and dispenser 2) should i change them both?

[molnibalage]

Yes.

[spit]

tx for quick respons, changed the lines in all the f15xx.dat files

[molnibalage]

Currently Su-17/20/22 are totally wrong, their chaff/flare DB flag is turned off therefore they do not have dispenser.
As I see the creators tried to model Su-17M4. Because of confused naming you can find 17M4 or 22M4 either. In RL their avionics, engines and other part could be different. Focus only on dispensers.

The latest variant have 2x4 ASO-2 dispenser, each with 32 charges. Total qty. should be 128 / 128 chaff/flare.
Some sources mention dispenser only near to stabilizers. Likey early Su-17M4 and or late M3 variant had this configuration. This means only 1x4, 64/64 chaff flare

Currently in BMS4 DB there are Su-17, Su-20 and Su-22. Different avionics capability cannot be modeled, only the different available weapons and dispenser configuration. This requres additional work with DB and actypes.lst file. Currently Su-17/20/22 share on same dat file therefore I explain only the maximum dispenser configuration. Even for the 4x2 dispense configuration can be modeled in two ways.

A. 2 chaff and 2 flare release for every command (2 dispenser model), enough for 64 release. Comparing with F-16C means ~twice release, each with double qty.

B. 4 chaff ans 4 flare release for every command (4 dispenser model), enough for 32 release. Comparing with F-16C means ~same release, each with four times bigger qty.

Su17.dat
Original data

nChaff 32
nFlare 96
FlareSeq 0
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 -16.0 1.0 -3.0
FlarePos2 -16.0 -1.0 -3.0
FlareVec1 -10 25 -70
FlareVec2 10 -25 -50
FlareCount1 32
FlareSeq 2
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 -16.0 1.0 -3.0
FlarePos2 -16.0 -1.0 -3.0
FlareVec1 -10 25 -70
FlareVec2 10 -25 -50
FlareCount1 32
ChaffSeq 0
ChaffDispensers 2
ChaffPos1 -23.0 -1.0 -3.0
ChaffVec1 0 -10 -30
ChaffPos2 -23.0 1.0 -3.0
ChaffVec2 0 10 -10
ChaffCount1 32

verison A

nChaff 96
nFlare 96
FlareSeq 0
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 -25.45 1.53 1.81
FlarePos2 -25.45 -1.53 1.81
FlareVec1 0 20 -90
FlareVec2 0 -20 -90
FlareCount1 30
FlareSeq 2
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 -25.45 1.53 1.81
FlarePos2 -25.45 -1.53 1.81
FlareVec1 0 20 -90
FlareVec2 0 -20 -90
FlareCount1 30
ChaffSeq 0
ChaffDispensers 24
ChaffPos1 -22.45 1.53 1.81
ChaffPos2 -22.45 -1.53 1.81
ChaffVec1 0 20 -90
ChaffVec2 0 -20 -90
ChaffCount1 30
ChaffSeq 2
ChaffDispensers 2
ChaffPos1 -22.45 1.53 1.81
ChaffPos2 -22.45 -1.53 1.81
ChaffVec1 0 20 -90
ChaffVec2 0 -20 -90
ChaffCount1 30

verison B

FlareSeq 0
FlareDispensers 4
FlarePos1 -25.45 1.53 1.81
FlarePos2 -25.45 -1.53 1.81
FlarePos3 0 -1.53 1.81
FlarePos4 0 1.53 1.81
FlareVec1 0 20 -90
FlareVec2 0 -20 -90
FlareVec3 0 20 -90
FlareVec4 0 -20 -90
FlareCount1 30
FlareSeq 2
FlareDispensers 4
FlarePos1 -25.45 1.53 1.81
FlarePos2 -25.45 -1.53 1.81
FlarePos3 0 -1.53 1.81
FlarePos4 0 1.53 1.81
FlareVec1 0 20 -90
FlareVec2 0 -20 -90
FlareVec3 0 20 -90
FlareVec4 0 -20 -90
FlareCount1 30
ChaffSeq 0
ChaffDispensers 4
ChaffPos1 -22.45 1.53 1.81
ChaffPos2 -22.45 -1.53 1.81
ChaffPos3 0 -1.53 1.81
ChaffPos4 0 1.53 1.81
ChaffVec1 0 20 -90
ChaffVec2 0 -20 -90
ChaffVec3 0 20 -90
ChaffVec4 0 -20 -90
ChaffCount1 30
ChaffSeq 2
ChaffDispensers 4
ChaffPos1 -22.45 1.53 1.81
ChaffPos2 -22.45 -1.53 1.81
ChaffPos3 0 -1.53 1.81
ChaffPos4 0 1.53 1.81
ChaffVec1 0 20 -90
ChaffVec2 0 -20 -90
ChaffVec3 0 20 -90
ChaffVec4 0 -20 -90
ChaffCount1 30

Video comes soon.


Older Su-17 variant had only two KDS-23 dispense each with 6 charges, but M4 also had it.

It means so few decoys it should not be modeled. I recommend to model M3/M4 with 4x1 and 2x4 dispenser using existing DB entries, but it requires the mentioned adaditional work.

Here is the video about different modeling methods.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/79z23zvv4bbrp35/Su-17_flare.mp4

http://youtu.be/ES0gWNeBQtE

[molnibalage]

Su-24M.

http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/lomach/aircraft/ru_su24.html

http://www.vectorsite.net/avsu24.html

The inbuilt 2x12 APP-50 cartridges are still available, but the additional big blocks close to stabilizer are removable.

Recommended qty. 2x48 + 2x12 –-> 60 / 60 chaff flare, with same release positions because of limitations of engine and data structure.
In RL Su-24M has MAWS (+ ECM), therfore preventive flare dropping is not recommended, likey this is the reason why had Su-17M4 bigger decoy qty.

su24.dat
Original data
nChaff 30
nFlare 60
New data

nChaff 60
nFlare 60
FlareSeq 0
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 -20.96 4.15 -2.17
FlarePos2 -20.96 -4.15 -2.17
FlareVec1 0 8 -85
FlareVec2 0 -8 -85
FlareCount1 30
FlareSeq 2
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 -20.96 4.15 -2.17
FlarePos2 -20.96 -4.15 -2.17
FlareVec1 0 8 -85
FlareVec2 0 -8 -85
FlareCount1 30
ChaffSeq 0
ChaffDispensers 2
ChaffPos1 -20.96 4.15 -2.17
ChaffPos2 -20.96 -4.15 -2.17
ChaffVec1 0 5 -85
ChaffVec2 0 -5 -85
ChaffCount1 30
ChaffSeq 2
ChaffDispensers 2
ChaffPos1 -20.96 4.15 -2.17
ChaffPos2 -20.96 -4.15 -2.17
ChaffVec1 0 5 -85
ChaffVec2 0 -5 -85
ChaffCount1 30

On video.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ee40p5b4p1ru2u4/Su-24M_flare.mp4

http://youtu.be/ilZrWMwxyUc

[molnibalage]

MiG-23 and MiG-27

In database currently there is only ML variant. In RL ML did not have dispenser or just only a fraction of the fleet. Because of gamebalance I recommend to give dispenser capability for ML variant, by modeling the fuselage dispensers, 2x60 charges. MiG-27 had the same dispenser config as MiG-23MLD.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avmig23_1.html

The centerline pylon modeling is not possible, same case as Su-17 KDS-23 vs. ASO-2 modeling.

mig23.dat
Original data

nChaff 30
nFlare 60

New data

nChaff 60
nFlare 60
FlareSeq 0
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 4 2.2 0.9
FlarePos2 4 -2.2 0.9
FlareVec1 0 5 -85
FlareVec2 0 -5 -85
FlareCount1 30
FlareSeq 2
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 4 2.2 0.9
FlarePos2 4 -2.2 0.9
FlareVec1 0 5 -85
FlareVec2 0 -5 -85
FlareCount1 30
ChaffSeq 0
ChaffDispensers 2
ChaffPos1 4 2.2 0.9
ChaffPos2 4 -2.2 0.9
ChaffVec1 0 5 -85
ChaffVec2 0 -5 -85
ChaffCount1 30
ChaffSeq 2
ChaffDispensers 2
ChaffPos1 4 2.2 0.9
ChaffPos2 4 -2.2 0.9
ChaffVec1 0 5 -85
ChaffVec2 0 -5 -85
ChaffCount1 30

Video.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/eklkt5j0h4biab5/MiG-23_flare.mp4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoGYJlLFmsU

mig27.dat
Original data

_nChaff 30
nFlare 60

FlareSeq 0
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 -6.29 0.43 -2.15
FlarePos2 -6.29 -0.43 -2.15
FlareVec1 0 30 -80
FlareVec2 0 -30 -80
FlareCount1 30
FlareSeq 2
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 -6.29 0.43 -2.15
FlarePos2 -6.29 -0.43 -2.15
FlareVec1 0 30 -80
FlareVec2 0 -30 -80
FlareCount1 30

ChaffSeq 0
ChaffDispensers 2
ChaffPos1 -6.29 0.43 -2.15
ChaffPos2 -6.29 -0.43 -2.15
ChaffVec1 0 30 -80
ChaffVec2 0 -30 -80
ChaffCount1 30_

New data

nChaff 60
nFlare 60
FlareSeq 0
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 4 2.2 0.9
FlarePos2 4 -2.2 0.9
FlareVec1 0 5 -85
FlareVec2 0 -5 -85
FlareCount1 30
FlareSeq 2
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 4 2.2 0.9
FlarePos2 4 -2.2 0.9
FlareVec1 0 5 -85
FlareVec2 0 -5 -85
FlareCount1 30
ChaffSeq 0
ChaffDispensers 2
ChaffPos1 4 2.2 0.9
ChaffPos2 4 -2.2 0.9
ChaffVec1 0 5 -85
ChaffVec2 0 -5 -85
ChaffCount1 30
ChaffSeq 2
ChaffDispensers 2
ChaffPos1 4 2.2 0.9
ChaffPos2 4 -2.2 0.9
ChaffVec1 0 5 -85
ChaffVec2 0 -5 -85
ChaffCount1 30

[Dee-Jay]

This post is deleted!

[molnibalage]

This is the problem. Do we anything besides praying…? I cannot see any reacton for BMS HQ…

[Dee-Jay]

This post is deleted!

[spit]

Community wil accept your modding molnibalage if you give them the right Explanations + Changelog.
Maybe BMS not at first but community loves to tweak (and break stuff :()
i put it in the dat files. looks cool

[molnibalage]

MiG-25.

In the '80s in USSR the PDS variant was widely used. During Desert Strom dispenser usage was confirmed by US pilots. Iraq used PD variants, likely with minor modifications.

Dispenser cartridges missing from the wing.

Because of gambalance - and we have olny one MiG-25 DB entry - I recommend to model 2 x KDS-155 dispenser on wings. Only problem hard to find exact data about the dispenser. I recommend to 60/60, its size is similar to BVP-50-60 that was used on MiG-23MLD.

mig25.dat

Old data
nChaff 30
nFlare 60

New data
nChaff 60
nFlare 60
FlareSeq 0
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 -5 12 -4
FlarePos2 -5 -12 -4
FlareVec1 0 5 -85
FlareVec2 0 -5 -85
FlareCount1 30
FlareSeq 2
FlareDispensers 2
FlarePos1 -5 12 -4
FlarePos2 -5 -12 -4
FlareVec1 0 5 -85
FlareVec2 0 -5 -85
FlareCount1 30
ChaffSeq 0
ChaffDispensers 2
ChaffPos1 -5 12 -4
ChaffPos2 -5 -12 -4
ChaffVec1 0 5 -85
ChaffVec2 0 -5 -85
ChaffCount1 30
ChaffSeq 2
ChaffDispensers 2
ChaffPos1 -5 12 -4
ChaffPos2 -5 -12 -4
ChaffVec1 0 5 -85
ChaffVec2 0 -5 -85
ChaffCount1 30

Video
http://www.mediafire.com/file/yjrd5rgo862638c/MiG-25_flare.mp4

http://youtu.be/akIL2ENuZfI