Infrared Counter Countermeasures (IRCCM)
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Does Falcon BMS implement infrared counter counter measures for infrared missiles?
Detection methods -
Rise Time: Measures the target’s energy level. A sudden increase within a fixed time window triggers the IRCCM.
Spectral: Uses a two-color switch to compare energy levels in different bands. A large jump in one band compared to the other indicates a flare
Kinematic: Detects the rapid change in line of sight due to a flare’s quick deceleration. Works best from the side.
Spatial: Uses the physical separation of the flare and target to discriminate. Two hot objects on opposite sides of the field of view activate the IRCCM.
once detected it can take multiple different responses -
Memory: Maintains the missile’s original trajectory while rejecting flare data until the flare leaves the field of view or the switch times out
Push Ahead: Propels the seeker forward, causing the flare to leave the field of view faster.
Push-Pull: Moves the seeker back and forth to align with the coolest part of the infrared spectrum, avoiding the flare.
Sector Attenuation: Uses an attenuation filter to reduce sensitivity in a portion of the field of view, specifically below the target.
FOV Gating: Limits the seeks FOV to filter out the flare’s effects
Electronic Fuel Division Gating:
Time Phase Blinking:the aim-9m uses rise-time to detect flares, and the memory method to mitigate the flare effects until the target can be reacquired
r-73 uses the spatial method to detect, and FOV gating to mitigate
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I have a feeling that you read Hpasp’s stuff about IR seekers.
I’m 100% sure that physical modeling any of these are not happen and likely never will because it is way, way, way to hard and you had to know which missiles uses what. What would happen with a missile where is not know the IRCCM? They still can use the current model but this approach would make a divided world for the IR seekers…
Even just modeling the mos basic, the first AM and FM seekers would be to hard and maybe pointless.
The BMS uses a flare modeling method which is not public. The only thing you can see in DB the flare chance and seeker range which has effect of lock distance and flare break which can be altered with several other factors.
Long time ago (~2020) was a short doc about the IR modeling but somehow it is not available anymore. Or maybe I just got it from somebody. I can’t remember.
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War thunder has done a pretty good job, they’ve implemented the Rise Time, and Spatial detection methods, and the FOV gating and Seeker shutoff as mitigation methods.
I wouldn’t imagine BMS could implement everything in one go, but it wouldn’t be that hard to do it in small bite size steps, and anything is better than some “flare chance”, or chance based logic
i haven’t ready anything by hpasp, i play warthunder from time to time, and noticed that the irccm was actually real when looking at replays and wondered if bms had the same but i’ll look for his doc.
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Don’t quote me on this, but I want to say the only IRCCM that’s coded into BMS’ missiles is a percent chance of hitting based on range and flares the target ejects.
What you are describing is a bit too much even for the most avid sim’er (and coder) and it doesn’t even take into account the flare cocktails that have been designed & tested to counter the countering of counter measures of IR seekers encountered today.
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everything in a game i a simplification on what happens physically, the bms (nor any “games”) radars aren’t using FFTs to process the pulses of each scheduled beam in their radar model. what i am saying is that flare chance is … silly, and even war thunder’s fidelity ( an arcade game through and through ) in this regard is better. so it is possible, and as a software engineer, if you have an accurate amraam with its nuance, the implementation of FOV gating and sensor shutoff is trivial.
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I do question whether War Thunder honestly simulates accurate counter-counter measures. IF they do, good on them!! (Although that begs the question what data are they using to simplify the physics involved.) Plus that is a well established company with many coders & dev’s working on it.
Feel free to join the BMS Discord channel and ask there. Perhaps a post there will give you a better answer. OR, go up against a J-20 carrying PL-15’s and see if you can discern how its CCM reacts to chaff bundles.
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@Randall said in Infrared Counter Countermeasures (IRCCM):
War thunder has done a pretty good job, they’ve implemented the Rise Time, and Spatial detection methods, and the FOV gating and Seeker shutoff as mitigation methods.
I wouldn’t imagine BMS could implement everything in one go, but it wouldn’t be that hard to do it in small bite size steps, and anything is better than some “flare chance”, or chance based logic
i haven’t ready anything by hpasp, i play warthunder from time to time, and noticed that the irccm was actually real when looking at replays and wondered if bms had the same but i’ll look for his doc.
Do we know all the different properties of flares? No. This makes simply impossible to model the IRCCM and makes is pointless. The equation has two sides with lots of parameters…
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@Randall said in Infrared Counter Countermeasures (IRCCM):
everything in a game i a simplification on what happens physically, the bms (nor any “games”) radars aren’t using FFTs to process the pulses of each scheduled beam in their radar model. what i am saying is that flare chance is … silly, and even war thunder’s fidelity ( an arcade game through and through ) in this regard is better. so it is possible, and as a software engineer, if you have an accurate amraam with its nuance, the implementation of FOV gating and sensor shutoff is trivial.
Not silly, it is called resource management and abstraction. You and most of ppl. simply do not think through what really means implementing something. You simply would make turn the BMS4 into an IR simulator… Which would have effect on the ground to model IR clutter, the clouds and reflection are also clutter, you have to physically model many things inside the seeker head which is not the same for missiles etc.
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M MaxWaldorf moved this topic from General Discussion
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radar being active sensor is different than passive sensors,
also war thunder has an army of info gatherers lol
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/Vm2IhvAqFgYYexcerpt -
Conclusion and Proposed Fix The PL-8B's IRCCM system relies on two mechanisms: 1. Signal memory-based flare discrimination (functionally analogous to the in-game "seeker shutoff" mechanic). 2. Reduced tracking FOV (≈1°) to limit flare re-entry post-separation.
