F22 Raptor Vs Euro Fighter
-
https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/cleaning-up-red-flag-alaska-f-22-vs-typhoon-debate/
I don’t know if I would call that a “Credible” source. The comments quoted from Jane’s are in limited scope, and it only says they “Reportedly” “Bagged” 3 F-22s in 1v1 situations. 8 Sorties is not the same as 8 “merges”, it’s not uncommon to merge 3 or 4 times on a training sortie, fuel permitting. If they merged 4 times that’s a great ratio… if they merged 20 it’s not so impressive. This is, after all, just someone’s personal blog. I’m not saying the EF isn’t a capable fighter, the quote from the Col involved in the exercise clearly indicates that it is, but all the quotes in the blog and the article excerpt are a little biased as they are from the EF squadron commander, who effectively says more or less they expected to do poorly, and did better than expected.
You can find several “Opinion Blogs” to support either side of the argument:
http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/p-i-r-a-t-e-versus-raptor.html
http://theaviationist.com/2014/09/30/these-may-be-the-only-f-22s-achilles-heels-in-a-dogfight-against-4th-gen-fighter-jets/Both articles based on the same “Engagement” data from the referenced Pre-Red Flag training. Based on what I have read (That means this is my opinion…) the idea behind the EF design as far as WVR dogfights is to survive, maneuver, and win a potentially extended engagement. While the F22 is “designed” to end a WVR fight quick and avoid a lengthy WVR engagement which could expose some of the weaknesses that accompany overuse of things like thrust-vectoring. Please read that carefully, as I am NOT saying the F22 relies on its superior BVR capabilities (That’s not what this post was about), I am saying even in a dogfight the idea is to use the maneuverability advantages provided by thrust vectoring to use a shoot first and better hope you don’t miss approach, because recovering from overuse/misuse of thrust vectoring is likely to be costly in both performance and SA. It’s also worthy to note there are other advantages the F22 has in close range which aren’t discussed in any of these articles because of their sensitive nature, and likely were not taken into account during the mock-engagements.
-
When I have the time I may upload my EF flight model that I made for F4, with iterations being released for many flavours such as SP4, FF2-5, OF. The latest one was never released. It’s not perfect, but should be more realistic and less over maneuvrable.
-
rafale turns better than the raptor
A simple video footage means nothing about the superiority or the non superiority of a fighter jet.
However … it leads into some nice and funny reading
And about the challenge Typhoon vs the rest of the world … I only know this :
-
However … it leads into some nice and funny reading
“The F-22 is clearly not in a position for a gun or a fox2 kill.” got from that link above.
This seems to be BS and biased.
-
… what I prefer is the:
I saw the original full gun cam record … and it is conformal to the pic above. Additionally … IIRC, the red cross is not the TOO CLOSE warning for weapon like in our F-16 HUD but rather the RECOVER or ATTITUDE warning displayed on the SFO page.
And because I am still amazed by the Typhoon’s design, here is a nice pic of a EF2000 taken from the Rafale cockpit: http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r279/sampaix/4188952622_9de8a26779.jpg
-
I’m searching my old Efa recordings against Rafale from Saint Dizier. I’m sorry but in clean configuration of both aircraft, Rafale has nothing to do. The only dogfights we lose was carrying underwing against clean Rafales.
-
Hi Chicho! (I was waiting for you )
… what is the internal fuel of a Typhoon and what is the internal fuel of a Rafale? … why the Typhoon needs the external tanks? … which has the greater fuel flow? => Thrust has a price to pay
I’m searching my old Efa recordings against Rafale from Saint Dizier. I’m sorry but in clean configuration of both aircraft, Rafale has nothing to do. The only dogfights we lose was carrying underwing against clean Rafales.
Sure. The EF2000 has more powerful engines (about 3kN more), Rafale is far from being a pure dog-fighter and is a concentrate of compromises to keep its omni-role profile.
But if Rafale is able to stalemate with F-22 in BFM, if a Typhoon is able to overcome a Rafale … I see no reason a Typhoon wouldn’t be able to shoot a F-22.
All this discussion to say: when talking about fighter jets (and their human pilots) capabilities, there is no real absolute truths.
EDIT: Would be really great to see your recordings! … If you can find them … do not hesitate! For sure, it must be a nice moment.
Salud!
-
So if a Gripen can take out 2 typhoons, is it twice as good as a F-22?? <-joke
http://blogg.forsvarsmakten.se/flygvapenbloggen/2014/06/06/verklighetsnara-taktikutveckling-av-jas-39-i-england-meatball-ur-en-pilots-perspektiv/
It’s in Swedish, don’t know how Google translate will handle the text but in short the exercise was 2 vs 1 where they wasn’t allowed to shoot before the merge simulating that the hadn’t seen each other before the merge a so called “pop up group WVR”. -
The only dogfights we lose
of what kind? hi aspect? with some kind of separation on to merge clean up?what?
-
Hi Chicho! (I was waiting for you )
… what is the internal fuel of a Typhoon and what is the internal fuel of a Rafale? … why the Typhoon needs the external tanks? … which has the greater fuel flow? => Thrust has a price to pay
Hi Dee-Jay,
Eurofighter clean internal fuel is 5t. I think Rafale is 4,7t right?
Eurofighter fuel consumption in dry range is very low including military power, the problem is using afterburners.
I like Rafale in dogfight, especially fighting in block one altitudes. It’s a huge adversary but I insist, for comparison, we have to test all aircraft with the same configuration.
Anyway I want to congratulate your country for your aircraft. I have good friends flying Rafale. We did TLP together in Florennes.Regards.
-
Eurofighter clean internal fuel is 5t. I think Rafale is 4,7t right?
I had the wrong figures … my figures said 4t for the EF! (Thank you for correction!) … Yep, 4t7 according to Wiki for the Raf.
for comparison, we have to test all aircraft with the same configuration.
Fully agree … and also have to know and take in consideration what are the “rules of he game” which are deterministic and not simply comparing a result or just videos or pictures. It is more complex that just saying one is better because it made a shot/kill => In real combat it is true … in training it is different. I guess you will agree.
Hope to meet you one day!
Cheers!
-
It is more complex that just saying one is better because it made a shot/kill => In real combat it is true … in training is it different. I guess you will agree.
Completely agree.
-
Looks like an F-22 in there to me……try 4:45… DJ posted this years back on here.
Nope that’s looking very much like an F-15. Wrong plan shape for F-22. Unfortunately the HUD symbology gets in the way just when it is going to show a nice view of the fins.
-
Nope that’s looking very much like an F-15. Wrong plan shape for F-22. Unfortunately the HUD symbology gets in the way just when it is going to show a nice view of the fins.
Although it is not the most clear cut view, going by the way it moves and the inner angle of the horizontal stabs it has to be an F-22
-
Like most other generational match-ups, the outcome of this type of engagement WVR, primarily, comes down to two major considerations:
1. The energy/angle/altitude of both fighters the moment they both make contact.
2. The individual capabilities of each pilot.
Specific performance capabilities without logged data to review/scrub, limits the discussion to classified speculation.
-
though No1 is predetermined(since its BFM-correct me if im wrong-), No2 is the most significant parameter
-
Like most other generational match-ups, the outcome of this type of engagement WVR, primarily, comes down to two major considerations:
1. The energy/angle/altitude of both fighters the moment they both make contact.
2. The individual capabilities of each pilot.
Specific performance capabilities without logged data to review/scrub, limits the discussion to classified speculation.
I disagree.
One of the most important parameters, which is not in your list, is the missile capability.Energy/angle/altitude plays a minor role in the outcome of a WVR engagement if one of acft has an A-A weapon with vast superior capabilities, like e.g. well off boresight shots. I will use again my favorite example: Take an old airframe, lets say F-5E. Modernize it with a HMD and a missile like a Python 4 (or even 5 or even a AIM-9X), you can call it F-5EM. Until very recently, this machine would have been able to shoot F-22 from the sky, since the F-22 only recently was able to make the first AIM-9X shot. (http://www.janes.com/article/51375/f-22-notches-first-guided-aim-9x-sidewinder-firing). Actually, it was only a test……IOC will be 2017!!!
Was the F-5EM a better acft than the F-22 until recently???
Regards
-
I disagree.
One of the most important parameters, which is not in your list, is the missile capability.Regards
Assuming the 1v1 exercise in question actually allowed any missile type.
If it was guns only then the above applies.
-
though No1 is predetermined(since its BFM-correct me if im wrong-), No2 is the most significant parameter
I should have clarified in a combat scenario where other resources have failed and a WVR situation ensues (totally theoretical of course).
-
I disagree.
One of the most important parameters, which is not in your list, is the missile capability.Energy/angle/altitude plays a minor role in the outcome of a WVR engagement if one of acft has an A-A weapon with vast superior capabilities, like e.g. well off boresight shots. I will use again my favorite example: Take an old airframe, lets say F-5E. Modernize it with a HMD and a missile like a Python 4 (or even 5 or even a AIM-9X), you can call it F-5EM. Until very recently, this machine would have been able to shoot F-22 from the sky, since the F-22 only recently was able to make the first AIM-9X shot. (http://www.janes.com/article/51375/f-22-notches-first-guided-aim-9x-sidewinder-firing). Actually, it was only a test……IOC will be 2017!!!
Was the F-5EM a better acft than the F-22 until recently???
Regards
See my above post. I should have mentioned that my comments were with the thought of meeting in combat, not a canned training scenario where all ‘hostilities’ start from relatively neutral positions.
Otherwise, if contact is made where one particular airframe is in an advantageous position, the weapons utilized isn’t that important…which is why I stated “primarily”…However, like you mentioned, it’s true that different weapon systems shouldn’t be scoffed at, and can make up for a good deal, all things being neutral at the moment both fighters make contact with each other.
Sorry for the confusion.