Flying as a wingman to AI lead

[VDoggFTM]

Will flying as a wingman to an AI lead in the campaign help me learn the game or will he just get me killed all the time?

I know how to fly, how to deliver A-G weapons and A-A weapons, how to avoid SAMs but I don’t have the experience to lead (even the AI).

I was flying a SEAD strike (Lobo3, in the number 2 position - we were the 2nd flight of about 4 SEAD strikes going on at the same time) and just ended up confused when we were intercepted by some MiG29s.

I don’t know if my lead was telling me to target them or not. I heard calls of Lobo3 target xx and Lobo3 you are the shooter. (I guess that was the package leader giving those orders to my lead). I just stuck to Lobo31’s wing (in trail) as he went to attack and then went defensive. There were no calls of Lobo32 you are shooter or anything like that.

Next thing I knew the wingman called Adder inbound and a second later I was dead.

What should I have done? Just forgotten about the AI lead and done my own thing? What would you have done?

Struggling to get my head around what to do when a bandit shows up but part of the problem was me thinking the escort would step in rather than me as a SEAD strike getting involved.

[Dee-Jay]

You can fly as wingman (I do it quite often but more for Btest purposes) … it is possible and is usually interesting (helps a lot to understand what your IA wingman needs from you when you are lead as human) …

But one keep in minds that IA is less less smart (sometimes even stupid) than human (even if I’ve seen human being even more stupid AIs … me included ) You have to stay very critic about AI lead’s behavior and not systematically follow him anytime if you think it is not safe.

Rememberer, AIs are just robots.

[molnibalage]

I tried some occasions with FF and many times I surprised. In BMS4 maybe sometimes worth. In case I order attack ground target AI many times is way too stupid and incompetent, but in case AI leads and order…? I have not tried it…I have to say one of the fix what I expect from 4.33 to get similar AI to FF4.

• AI always used the shortest route to bomb / attack the target after the order even the distance was only some NM in most of cases AI was able to bomb even during climbing to the alt which was defined in dat file and missiles could be launched alsoduring climb/descent. While in BMS4 I see way too ofther that after attack your wingman AC fly ABOVE (!) the target, and from 20 nm try to an attack and release only a single bomb…
• In old FF wingman used your release settings so you could be sure the risk to bombing a target was worth because of released firewpower.
• Flights with no human always released all bombs in a single pass only with some exceptions.

This as simple was as effective was…

[hoover]

@molnibalage:

• In old FF wingman used your release settings so you could be sure the risk to bombing a target was worth because of released firewpower.* Flights with no human always released all bombs in a single pass only with some exceptions.

this would be a great thing to have in the next update. No matter what my release settings are, the AI drops only single items when carrying GBUs for example, and often it’s too dangerous to line up for a second run.

Cheers, Uwe

[molnibalage]

@hoover:

this would be a great thing to have in the next update. No matter what my release settings are, the AI drops only single items when carrying GBUs for example, and often it’s too dangerous to line up for a second run.

Cheers, Uwe

This was one of the first thing what I recommended after the release of 4.32.

[Dee-Jay]

@molnibalage:

IIn case I order attack ground target AI many times is way too stupid and incompetent, but in case AI leads and order…? I have not tried it…

This is why you should have tried to fly as wingman … It is good to understand what AIs needs from their human leader. And be sure that in real, if a lead assign a target to its winman too late or not in a good conditions, the wing will not be able to understand or will not be able to sort the TGT either.

I have to say one of the fix what I expect from 4.33 to get similar AI to FF4.

There are differences between “fix” and “hack”. If you want the same AIs than in FF, we do not need fixes, we need hacks.

[Dee-Jay]

This post is deleted!

[Dee-Jay]

@molnibalage:

This was one of the first thing what I recommended after the release of 4.32.

And I do not think you will ever see it back in BMS. Unless maybe by defining the release param for AIs via the comm’s menu which would be the “only” (not the “only” actualy, but “one of the”) solutions to allow diferent weapons inside a given flight.
And if AIs are requiring more than 10NM from IP to TGT, it is probably also because of furture planned features (desin required to allow a real flight dynamic of bombs rather than a simple balistic computation without flight model … but lets talkabout this in 6 - 8 weeks.)

Yeah Molni … we do not have the full picture here even when we think we have … this is including most of BMS members.

[Dee-Jay]

@hoover:

No matter what my release settings are, the AI drops only single items when carrying GBUs for example

If talking about Laser guided bomb, this is normal. About JDAM … I do not rmemeber what will be our future. Will check.

[Frederf]

JDAM is considered dumb bomb by AI for release quantity purpose. Oddly the altitude isn’t standard LDGP (16,000’) but (13,000’).

[hoover]

@Dee-Jay:

If talking about Laser guided bomb, this is normal. About JDAM … I do not rmemeber what will be our future. Will check.

Hm, I mostly noticed this with the “big” GBU (12? / 10?) that is 500kg apiece and sends you into a roll as soon as you drop only one of them The AI seems to be able to “auto-trim” in this case but I think it’d be more realistic if they were dropped in pairs from a flight safety point of view.

All the best, Uwe

[Blu3wolf]

Believe they are a little over 900 kg, actually. Probably wouldnt hurt to trim that out.

[l3crusader]

FYI dropping LGBs in pair is not recommended. Technically you could drop two and guide them both on the same target. But :

• a delay is needed in the drop if you dont want to risk in-flight collisions, more likely to happen with a guided “bang-bang” flight
• if you drop them in sequence you run the risk of the first one masking the laser spot for the second one.

Also, its normal that AI “auto-trim” - AI dont have the Advanced Flight model, so no roll compensation needed.

Concerning trim : trim in roll is of course mandatory. But in some case, with big bombs, a little bit of yaw trim can be helpful as well. Use with caution though.

[Reaper58th]

@l3crusader:

• if you drop them in sequence you run the risk of the first one masking the laser spot for the second one.

But the jet is moving forward, so when the bombs drop with e.g. 1 sec delay the two bombs have two seperate flight paths so this couldn’t be a problem. Or am i misguided here?

[hoover]

Thanks guys, interesting points to consider!

Uwe

[molnibalage]

@l3crusader:

FYI dropping LGBs in pair is not recommended. Technically you could drop two and guide them both on the same target. But :

• a delay is needed in the drop if you dont want to risk in-flight collisions, more likely to happen with a guided “bang-bang” flight
• if you drop them in sequence you run the risk of the first one masking the laser spot for the second one.

Also, its normal that AI “auto-trim” - AI dont have the Advanced Flight model, so no roll compensation needed.

Concerning trim : trim in roll is of course mandatory. But in some case, with big bombs, a little bit of yaw trim can be helpful as well. Use with caution though.

Are we speaking RL? Because F-111Fs did this mor than 15 years. They released 4/AC in El Dorado Canyon and during ODS pair release was totally typical from F-111 and Tornado (with buddy lasing) either.

[Dee-Jay]

@molnibalage:

Are we speaking RL? Because F-111Fs did this mor than 15 years. They released 4/AC in El Dorado Canyon and during ODS pair release was totally typical from F-111 and Tornado (with buddy lasing) either.

We are talking about dropping in pair from a signle ship on a signle target. AIs can’t perform buddy lase anyway so the questrion in BMS is a bit pointless.