Preventing Issues Taxiing
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I certainly didn’t mean for you to take any offense, friend. Just trying to keep a lite atmosphere. I understand that it’s different, I’m just trying to highlight the fact that ground ATC has been done successfully before. I’ve also seen the AI on BMS cause jams on its own, due to arriving and departing aircraft trying to use the same taxiways.
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I see this sort of thing more than once. It is because the AI gets overloaded imo. Like DJ said, reduce the amount of traffic on airbases and this will not happen offten. But for realistic airbase traffic, you would have this kind of busy traffic environment. I load up the airbase traffic bucause it is more realistic to me. Just workaround the AI limitations and your good to go.
I, too would like the immersion of a busy base. How dose one adjust traffic?
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I’m just trying to highlight the fact that ground ATC has been done successfully before.
Before? … not in Falcon4.
And if you are talking about MSFS, ATC brain has just to find a slot for take off and for landing. That is all. In Falcon4, things are totally different, constrains are much higher.
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due to arriving and departing aircraft trying to use the same taxiways.
AFAIK, only at OSAN AB entering the “Draggin’s Lair” apron.
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Before? … not in Falcon4.
And if you are talking about MSFS, ATC brain has just to find a slot for take off and for landing. That is all. In Falcon4, things are totally different, constrains are much higher.
I just mean in general. While I certainly applaud the fantastic work you’ve all done, and agree that pretty much everything about the sim is better, there are still things that need work. Again, it isn’t an issue of it being bad, just that it could be a lot better…
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Can’t be better if some ppl do not sacrifice their free time for “your” wishes.
certainly didn’t mean for you to take any offense,
Failed (a little bit) … No offense taken … but read again what you’ve wrote and imagine how it can be taken from dev side. Especially by giving the example you gave with MSFS!
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Can’t be better if some ppl do not sacrifice their free time for “your” wishes.
Failed (a little bit) … No offense taken … but read again what you’ve wrote and imagine how it can be taken from dev side. Especially by giving the example you gave with MSFS!
Sorry if you took it like that. I was simply citing an example. My only intention was to express my concern about working with the AI, and the discussion kind of got side-tracked.
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Do not worry … we hadn’t waited the suggestion on ppl forum to improve ATC … just wait a little bit more
And by the way, the problem encountered at OSAN is not an IA brain issue, but rather a problem of available taxiways (apron exit).
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… and just to add,
My suggestions arent aimed at changing AI traffic. Rather “ground control” advises the human player as to when and where to go. I think Mav is mostly right here. There have been a few “overloaded” traffic conditions, but in general, the AI behavior is scripted well enough.
As DJ said, we will have to wait and see.
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I’m sure AI has density limits and issues but 90% of the time “AI screw up” is really “player screw up.” Even at 1-2m intervals or even co-assigned takeoff time I haven’t seen log jam on the taxiway that wasn’t an obvious human fault (driving too fast, took wrong taxiway, too early, too late, etc.).
One technique I’ve recently discovered is to call “T-5” as soon as I’m ready to get ATC a message about my takeoff number. “You are #7 for departure.” OK, so don’t move until you see 6 more airplanes rolling in front of you to the runway. That 4-ship of Phantoms and those two SEAD Vipers, OK they are rolling here I go. It works really nice.
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I believe the problem is you can’t see what your sequence really is once you start to taxi. There are spawning points that are in hangars/bunkers where even if you did an exterior view, you can’t view how many are actually taxiing ahead of you until it’s too late. Besides, in RL a pilot doesn’t climb on top of a hangar to see how they should sequence themselves with the departure traffic, ATC does that. I’ve done many times the usual taxi 4-5 mins prior to T/O and still sometimes get AI trying to pass me. My guess is because there is an AI flight literally 1-2 (maybe less) minutes T/O time prior to me and they spawn further down the taxiway or a location that is further away from the departing hold line.
I don’t believe any of us are speaking out of disrespect for the work done here, DJ. Even from Catty’s posts I didn’t get the vibes of any disrespect. It seems there could be improvement, I don’t know how easy or difficult it would be. But that’s my opinion, that’s also Catty’s opinion.
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If you ramp start you shouldn’t have spawning issues. At Osan, I always start in the hangar and I can see flights pass by as I’m doing my startup. Not sure how spawning on the taxi way effects things, as I always ramp start.
So, again, you have to pull out when 5-minutes from takeoff - any later or earlier will confuse the AI - cause that’s when they generally head for the flight line. Before pulling out of the hangar, contact tower and you’ll get your cue status (flight 1, you are #3 for takeoff). If you keep track of the number of A/C passing by you will not miss your slot and the AI flights will not get confused. Worse case, do a satellite view and see if there are two a/c at the ramp line ready to take off. I’ll check with tower once more as I’m pulling out of the hangar just to make sure I’m pulling out into the proper cue sequence.
The only times I have seen AI mess up during taxi/takeoff is when the tower is behind and subsequent flights are late for take off. Happens at Osan sometimes due to heavy traffic, especially Day-1 of campaign.
Good day!
DrDetroit
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Just my two cents, with over 20 yrs flying the B52 many T/O’s were delayed but that’s the job, get airborne, and figure out how to make that time up with minimum use of your go-go juice. Maybe you head to point 3 and blow off point 2 or maybe there is a orbit in the plan you can blow off or a 45 degree turn where you can make up time, all in all that’s the job deal with it. If there is no way to make it up go with delta time and reset ETA. Yes there is frustration in not making T/O on time but it’s akin to real life there is a lot going on in the game and the airfield a lot to do airborne, it gives it a real feel and when you are battling time it’s just another thing to overcome. Kudo’s to the DEV team I wouldn’t, change a thing. I say if your sitting on the taxiway and missed T/O time then start the computations then some kind of plan to make up time better yet do while mission planning even better.
WeakLink
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I believe the problem is you can’t see what your sequence really is once you start to taxi. There are spawning points that are in hangars/bunkers where even if you did an exterior view, you can’t view how many are actually taxiing ahead of you until it’s too late. Besides, in RL a pilot doesn’t climb on top of a hangar to see how they should sequence themselves with the departure traffic, ATC does that. I’ve done many times the usual taxi 4-5 mins prior to T/O and still sometimes get AI trying to pass me. My guess is because there is an AI flight literally 1-2 (maybe less) minutes T/O time prior to me and they spawn further down the taxiway or a location that is further away from the departing hold line.
Ramp Start, align your IRS, whe you reach STS10.0 watch your wingman, when its taxi light come on he is ready to taxi, call the tower for taxi, if ATC say “xxxxx taxi runway xx and hold short” start your taxi. If ATC say “position and hold” (I know, the phraseo is not corect! That is true.) … Do not taxi yet and wait, another a/c has the priority over you.
Most of the cases, it works quite good. (I do agree, sometime it can be confusing)
It seems there could be improvement
Not that easy because (afaik) ATC code can’t know what is human actual position. But ready again post #28
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Just my two cents, with over 20 yrs flying the B52 many T/O’s were delayed but that’s the job, get airborne, and figure out how to make that time up with minimum use of your go-go juice. Maybe you head to point 3 and blow off point 2 or maybe there is a orbit in the plan you can blow off or a 45 degree turn where you can make up time, all in all that’s the job deal with it. If there is no way to make it up go with delta time and reset ETA. Yes there is frustration in not making T/O on time but it’s akin to real life there is a lot going on in the game and the airfield a lot to do airborne, it gives it a real feel and when you are battling time it’s just another thing to overcome. Kudo’s to the DEV team I wouldn’t, change a thing. I say if your sitting on the taxiway and missed T/O time then start the computations then some kind of plan to make up time better yet do while mission planning even better.
WeakLink
Talking about ground ops and compliance with target’s TOT, what is missing right now in our Falcon4 and would be absoluetly needed, is an ATO engine able to plan Holds before Push. It would gives time buffer on ground.
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Ramp Start, align your IRS, whe you reach STS10.0 watch your wingman, when its taxi light come on he is ready to taxi, call the tower for taxi, if ATC say “xxxxx taxi runway xx and hold short” start your taxi. If ATC say “position and hold” (I know, the phraseo is not corect! That is true.) … Do not taxi yet and wait, another a/c has the priority over you.
Most of the cases, it works quite good. (I do agree, sometime it can be confusing)
Not that easy because (afaik) ATC code can’t know what is human actual position. But ready again post #28
dont forget that 4.32 is a bit broken for ATC taxiing …
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dont forget that 4.32 is a bit broken for ATC taxiing …
I do not forget, this is why I am saying “most of the cases” and not “in all cases”
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If you ramp start you shouldn’t have spawning issues. At Osan, I always start in the hangar and I can see flights pass by as I’m doing my startup. Not sure how spawning on the taxi way effects things, as I always ramp start.
So, again, you have to pull out when 5-minutes from takeoff - any later or earlier will confuse the AI - cause that’s when they generally head for the flight line. Before pulling out of the hangar, contact tower and you’ll get your cue status (flight 1, you are #3 for takeoff). If you keep track of the number of A/C passing by you will not miss your slot and the AI flights will not get confused. Worse case, do a satellite view and see if there are two a/c at the ramp line ready to take off. I’ll check with tower once more as I’m pulling out of the hangar just to make sure I’m pulling out into the proper cue sequence.
The only times I have seen AI mess up during taxi/takeoff is when the tower is behind and subsequent flights are late for take off. Happens at Osan sometimes due to heavy traffic, especially Day-1 of campaign.
Good day!
DrDetroit
In particular its Kunsan. You either spawn in the pit areas, or inside bunkers. Hard to see left or right and the runway from where you start.
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In particular its Kunsan. You either spawn in the pit areas, or inside bunkers. Hard to see left or right and the runway from where you start.
And this is why you have airport diagrams in your doc folder If you want to access them in flight, you can always print them, or rely on apps like BMS Electronic Flightbag that do the trick nicely too.