AI wingmen don't do their assigned tasks..
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I’m flyng an Israel vs Syria campaign and doing BAI missions one after another with different loadouts: Mavs, CBUs, combined. I noticed they always fire two missiles per pass but i’ve not checked if they fire at the same target, same thing for cluster bombs. I usually try to give the first attack order from at least 15 miles away, but i’ve noticed that sometimes even ordering to attack a target that is only 5 miles out works, depending on their aspect and position. From the debriefing it often results that many Mavs just missed, i don’t know why. But the real problem is with bombs, even guided ones, like GBU 31. They often miss, even if AI is lead and player is not giving any order, modifyng the attack at all. Another thing i’ve noticed is that they fly too much low in ground attacks, often being fired at, calling “engaged defensive” and in missions wich involves a station time with multiple passes, like Interdiction, they get shot down one after another, especially with AI Lead! I hope devs find a way to improve AI, maybe with a Hard Deck option, decided by lead. It’s stupid to fire Mavericks from 2000 feet when you can safely launch and drop remaining well above 10000 or more.
Another thing i’ve noticed is the “one pass haul ass” with Mav missiles. In Allied Force they often fires all carried missiles in the first pass, in BMS always two and no more. Plus, i tried to fly with CBUs only, while my wingmens were carrying only Mavs: I was not able to issue a single attack order. They replied as usual but never fired a shot, even if the order was given at a reasonable distance. Instead when i carry Mavs too, even in different numbers or sets, they comply ad fire, even if my selected weapon is not the Mav. I think they use first and second weapon of choice to attack: first missiles, second bombs.
Can anyone explain the difference between order 1 Attack my Target and order 8 Attack collateral Targets? Thanks.
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As a single player, flying F4 since release 1998, you can trust me to know how to do mission planning,
or how to be a babysitter for the AI, etc.AI ground bombing was more or less fine from the very first release to OF 4.x, now in BMS it’s broken.
Well well well, this of course changes everything!
I do believe you when saying you fly F4 since release and I´m deeply impressed, your statements here however make me think that you don´t know how to mission plan so that the AI does what he is supposed to do.However, I don´t want to start a fight here about who is right and who is wrong. So if you like to think the AI is broken, fine with me. I think he´s not, and I can proof it
YOU are talking about some quick TE’s, NOW fly a complete campaign from day 1
and fly mostly any kind of bombing missions with your wingies,
THEN you’ll see how good and realistic the AI works.You are assuming that I´ll get my knowledge from flying TE´s, your assumtion however is wrong. FWIW I just started a ITO campaign and in the second mission my wingman did dumb-bomb an EWR Radar just fine.
Prior to this I was flying a Korean Campaign and did not only set PAK´s, Mission Type and Target´s but also build the ATO for 2 Squads as well as the Fighter Mafia and some F-15E´s where needed.
I did only fly A/G Missions (as the F-16 would), loaded my planes with realistic loadouts and guess what, Allied Forces did just fine. On my last save we did progress a good way north, sky´s were clear and not so many moving ground targets left to shoot atBut all this doesn´t matter much as the AI routine for Campaign and TE is absolutely the same - the outcome however may be different.
I did the TE for two reasons:
- to verify what I already knew
- more important, to validate and being able to show the results to anyone not believing the AI is working. Mission and ACMI file available upon request.
Hell, I’ve escorted a B-52 flight (in an addon Korea campaign) and even they just circled at the target area
without dropping a single bomb, but some of them got shoot down by enemy air defence.Diving into what went wrong here would become quiet lenghty and I´m running out of time. I might come back to that quote if there is interest tho at a later time.
Greetings
TC -
Haven’t had any experience with other Falcons to refer too. But I have to agree with lazy when it comes to ground bombings. It’s like a frustrating game of Roulette trying to get wingmen/packages to drop their bombs. Sometimes they will, and other times (for no reason) they just circle above the target in full afterburn until bingo. I try issuing a rejoin command, and then waiting for them to get in formation, before taking them +6nm out and then reissuing “attack my target” - and other such tricksBut when they’re in “dumb mode” (which is 90% of the time on bombing runs) they simply refuse to play ball.
And yes (from my experience) they drop two bombs on a single pass - always.
You think that something can be broken at some times, when at other times it is not?
Either it is broken or it´s not, so if it´s only at part times working there must be some other reason for “there refusal of cooperation”, right ??Well, guess what. I drop 2 bombs on a single pass as well - am I broken too (I´m broke tho<gg>).
Why spare one?Greetings
TC</gg> -
Yes, AI is quite dumb sometimes, especially agains ground targets in TE. Even against pre planned OCA target and weapons free many time chooses a new approach direction regardless of shortest direction. AI fly 10-20 nm from target then perform the bombing. Other side of the coin - I have screenshot about it - when after dropping bombs F-5E used unguided rockets against vehicles in campaign. (I experienced during tests of Korea '80s)
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AI are dumb … yes … but that is not showstopper at all.
Learn how to use them … know their limits … and plan mission accordingly.
… hope that one day that will be better.
I can do it, why don’t you?
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In FF AI also dumb but at least always in the same way.
In BMS4 I cannot use AI even for an OCA missions. AI controlled AC sometimes attack the target, sometimes not. Even if they are engage the target somtimes choose its own attack direction…
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@T-C:
You think that something can be broken at some times, when at other times it is not?
Either it is broken or it´s not, so if it´s only at part times working there must be some other reason for “there refusal of cooperation”, right ??Well, guess what. I drop 2 bombs on a single pass as well - am I broken too (I´m broke tho<gg>).
Why spare one?Greetings
TC</gg>I don’t have a great deal of experience with F4, so I’m not really in a position to judge whether the AI is “broken”, but as a player it just seems almost impossible to determine how to accurately control AI bombing.
I play a lot of games which require AI management (ArmA, Hearts of Iron, Men of War, Homeworld, etc) and so I know that any game which enables complex AI control is never perfect. The human player must create certain conditions (positioning, etc) before the AI will obey orders predictably. If the conditions are not correct the AI in these games will appear “dumb”. So, half of the skill in controlling AI is creating the correct conditions before issuing any orders. So perhaps my problem is that I’ve just not learnt the conditions required for Falcon AI.
I’m not a “lazy gamer” so I will continue to search for the magic formula for controlling F4 AI bombings. But so far, it has been very difficult and I haven’t found any pattern or logic behind their behaviour. When I designate a target 10nm out (in a threat free area), order my wing to “attack my target” and he just flies above that target in full AB burning his fuel before going bingo and then just RTBs…something might be a bit wrong with his logic I think.
But it is definitely not a game-breaker. It just means I have no faith in AI bombing abilities and don’t feel I can rely on them in missions …that’s a shame for an otherwise awesome game.
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In FF AI also dumb but at least always in the same way.
In BMS4 I cannot use AI even for an OCA missions. AI controlled AC sometimes attack the target, sometimes not. Even if they are engage the target somtimes choose its own attack direction…
THATS the biggest problem. I don’t mind the AI being “dumb” really, as long as I can predict that dumbness and work around it :D. but I can’t find any pattern for F4’s dumbness - it just seems random
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In BMS4 I cannot use AI even for an OCA missions. AI controlled AC sometimes attack the target, sometimes not. Even if they are engage the target somtimes choose its own attack direction…
Would be a pleasure one day to take you on my wing on a MP session, and show you how to do with IA … With me, AI are very good in OCA mission using BLU107.
Maybe because I’m less kind than you with them at debrief (?)
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Dee-Jay: please, do a “tutorial vid” for the rest of us!
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After update 1, I cant frag a flight where you have to refuel in the air. The refueling part goes okay (hard practice), but when we’re done my wingy refuses to join me. Instead he fly formation with the tanker. I tried all the commands (I think), but the AI refuses to join me.
Anyone else with the same issue? Any known workaround?
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i have the same problem roach
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i have the same problem roach
Don’t really understand … please, explain more (detailed process) and give TE save.
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After update 1, I cant frag a flight where you have to refuel in the air. The refueling part goes okay (hard practice), but when we’re done my wingy refuses to join me. Instead he fly formation with the tanker. I tried all the commands (I think), but the AI refuses to join me.
Anyone else with the same issue? Any known workaround?
yep, I’m not sure I have a good workaround.
After the strike, sometime the AI would Fence Out. I use [8] view key to check to see if they turned their NAV lights on.
Before calling the Tanker, I check their NAV lights and if lights are on, I give them the Fence In command.
I don’t know who told the AI wingee that he could call “millertime”
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yep, I’m not sure I have a good workaround.
After the strike, sometime the AI would Fence Out. I use [8] view key to check to see if they turned their NAV lights on.
Before calling the Tanker, I check their NAV lights and if lights are on, I give them the Fence In command.
I don’t know who told the AI wingee that he could call “millertime”
Odd, my AI go Fence In immediately after departure and won’t go Fence Out unless I either tell them to, or on approach.
Also the [8] key doesn’t work for me. Instead of viewing the nearest friendly aircraft (like in the original F4), it views the farthest friendly aircraft from me.
After update 1, I cant frag a flight where you have to refuel in the air. The refueling part goes okay (hard practice), but when we’re done my wingy refuses to join me. Instead he fly formation with the tanker. I tried all the commands (I think), but the AI refuses to join me.
Out of the two times I refueled, I had that happen once–except my wingman never actually fueled. He just stayed with the tanker for an extended period of time. The second time I tried refueling, everything went perfectly.
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sigh!
I just wrote more detailed report of the bug I was experiencing and I accidentally pressed something on my keyboard and the browser went back a page. Tried to return, but my reply was gone. Sorry right now I dont have the energy to write it all again
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hit [8] a bunch of times……
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I just wrote more detailed report of the bug I was experiencing and I accidentally pressed something on my keyboard and the browser went back a page. Tried to return, but my reply was gone. Sorry right now I dont have the energy to write it all again
Already happens to me … it is a big pain in the ass Now I write always into a “Word” or txt page, then copy/past
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Would be a pleasure one day to take you on my wing on a MP session, and show you how to do with IA … With me, AI are very good in OCA mission using BLU107.
Maybe because I’m less kind than you with them at debrief (?)
I’ve noticed that AI + BLU107 don’t have a problem dropping their bombs,
but they flew at 2000- 1000 ft and 15-20 miles over enemy territory (according to my HSD)
and one of them crashed into the ground at his 2nd or 3rd run.Usally I don’t load my AI wingies with BLU107, because I can take out up to 6 runways myself (if I load 12 BLU107)
Cheers,
LS