[Solved, no bug] Weird TFR bug(?) in 4.33

[ph34rb0t]

I’ve encountered this during the AGM65 training TE(s), but I guess this can happen in any other situation as well.

If you try to engage the Terrain Following Radar with the RDR ALT switch in the “Off” position, you get a lot of warnings and the “pull up” warning from Betty in an endless loop. The “lots of warnings” part is what I expect from a having an incorrect setup for TFS operation, but the endless Betty loop is bugging me. There’s no way to shut her up except flicking the “voice message” switch to “Inhibit”.
Also, this condition doesn’t seem to be resettable.

The exact steps to trigger this are:
1. RDR ALT switch to “Off”
2. MFD to TFR page
3. Select “Norm” mode

What happens next:
1. Flashing “WARN” and “No Ter” on HUD
2. “Master Caution” light
3. “TF Fail” light on left eyebrow panel
4. Betty shouting “Pull Up” in an endless loop
5. “Avionics Fault Light” on the fault panel
6. “SWIM RALT FAIL” and “NVP COMM FAIL” indications on the fault display
7. Flashing “TFR LIMITS” indication on the TFR page

These fault indications are fine and dandy, but if I try to correct my error by flicking the “RDR ALT” switch to “On”, turn the TFR on, wait for the timeout and then set any mode besides “STBY”, I get no result whatsoever. All fault indications remain on and Betty keeps yelling at me although all conditions for normal TFR operation are met.

Is this a bug or is the TFR supposed to stay inoperative just because it did not get a radar altitude feed the first time?

• Edit:

Hm. After having triggered the TFR failure, setting the TFR to “STBY”, acknowledging the fault via F-ACK and pressing the paddle switch (ALT+A) will make Betty and the warnings go quiet. After switching RDR ALT to “On” and waiting for a proper altitude indication the TFR can then be initialized and operated normally.
The paddle switch is the key here.

(I could only find a mention of the paddle switch regarding interrupted fly-ups in the Dash 34, not as a cure for incorrect TFR configurations.)

[Stubbies2003]

One thing you might want to try next time is instead of simply FACK the problem go to the test page and clear the problem. That will make it so you don’t have to touch the FACK (as long as the problem clears) and could be a simpler way to set things right again as far as the jet is concerned.

I haven’t tested that so that is just me throwing a guess as to what the sim is doing/reacting to since the fault system was beefed up from 4.32.

[Mav-jp]

not a bug afaik

[l3crusader]

Completely normal, proper TF commands requires both TFR and RALT.

Dash-34 1.8.8 :

When radar altimeter data is invalid or missing for 1 second, the terrain following system will declare a radar
altimeter data bad MFL (FLCS 80), (NVP 015) and a TF RALT FAIL, NVP COMM FAIL PFL. These PFLs and MFLs are
usually the result of switching the NVP to an operating mode before setting the radar altimeter to an operate mode
or when a radar altimeter break track occurs. In this situation, it is appropriate to execute a SWIM reset and resume
TF. If altimeter data is still missing (CARA inoperative), TF will not resume

BM Training 8.4 describes a check of automatic pull-up when briefly deactivating RALT, BTW.

[Red Dog]

As well as the avionics checklists
Where paddle is indeed advertized to solve it

[ph34rb0t]

Yep, it’s not a bug rather than an ID10T error.

Anyway, I’ve only stumbled on a similar post in the “4.33 feedback” thread after I’ve solved my problem.

Thanks for the input anyway. Hope my blunder and this discussion will prevent new threads on the subject.

[Legion711]

Might be an “idiot” error but it’s kinda unusual to not being able to quickly ( without knowing the F16 in depth ) shut the mouth of Betty. I know that I spend a entire mission with that … yelling at me the first time I wanted to try it

[Blu3wolf]

Its easy to shut her up. Just make use of the VMS inhibit switch.

[Frederf]

I found automatic FLY UP to be very persistent so I added keyboard “A” to toggle the ATF button. If I want to discontinue a fly up because of an error I hold AP DISC paddle, press “A”, and then I sort the problem before reengage. Normal FLY UP without long term error it is enough just to hold AP DISC paddle and fly to acceptable parameters before releasing paddle to resume.

[Mav-jp]

@Frederf:

I found automatic FLY UP to be very persistent so I added keyboard “A” to toggle the ATF button. If I want to discontinue a fly up because of an error I hold AP DISC paddle, press “A”, and then I sort the problem before reengage. Normal FLY UP without long term error it is enough just to hold AP DISC paddle and fly to acceptable parameters before releasing paddle to resume.

you should not have any fly up in auto except in case of system failure, bad pilot input or Rain…

[Frederf]

The difference is “latched” vs. “unlatched” and I was experiencing a latched flyup when doing the training TE procedure which includes inducing failures. Terrain related fly ups should be the unlatched variety which don’t persist and simply AP paddle suspension and release should resume just fine.

[Leech]

JP is 100% correct about flyup’s. May I add that in real life, an aircraft or forward launched weapons within the TFR ground scan will cause a flyup.
In the case of the SWIM flyup’s there is a small bug. Radar altimeter bad data are taken into account even if the jet out out of theTFR pitch and roll limits. Known issue

[b_bong12]

so whenever u perform a loft or roll&pull with TFR u get WARN sign and failures because of this bug,correct?

[Frederf]

Not a bug to get a TF warning if you fly outside TF parameters when TF is functioning, just normal simulation of reality.

[b_bong12]

so, whenever u exceed the TFR limits for an attack or defence, u get all the warnings like TF fail,swim fail, nvp fail?

[l3crusader]

@b_bong12:

so, whenever u exceed the TFR limits for an attack or defence, u get all the warnings like TF fail,swim fail, nvp fail?

Yes. Hence the importance of the Paddle Switch to inhibit autopilot operation and all the TFR Warnings.

[b_bong12]

it still shows the WARN even if u have paddle switch depressed while overbanking/inverted.

[Frederf]

AP paddle just disconnects the TFR (or AP) from controlling the airplane surfaces. The TFR system continues to behave the same regardless if the autopilot is connected or not (it doesn’t know). Warnings normal to maneuvering are “non-latched” meaning they will go away when the condition stops and TFR can be resumed by letting go of the paddle.

[Leech]

@b_bong12:

it still shows the WARN even if u have paddle switch depressed while overbanking/inverted.

There is a bug where the SWIM flyup cause by bad RALT data kicks in, when the TFR is out of limits. Known issue……

[b_bong12]

thanks to all for the replies