Air to air refueling tutorial problem in 4.33
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I’m having great difficulties with this tutorial.
I’ll preface this by stating I have watched several videos on this procedure, and it has never looked as it does when I use this tutorial.
The first problem I have is that the aircraft constantly pulls to the left. It will not fly straight. The second problem I have is that when I reach the tanker the aircraft is constantly pitching up and down. I know there’s jet wash from the engines, but, again, I have never seen such violent pitching up and down in any BMS refueling video.
I tried a “hands off” experiment with the navigation scenario. Not a problem flying straight. I then tried using the same wind conditions, 320 at 13 knots, instead of 178 at 13 knots. In the refueling tutorial the aircraft continued to pull left.
Is there some kind of issue with this scenario, or is it just meant to be like this?
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One of those flight is loaded very slightly asymmetric. Regardless, the ‘pulling left’ could either be the need for trim or wind. In either case, you should easily be able to correct for it.
If you’re getting jetwash turbulence, you are probably either too far back or too high. Drive through it, or start a little lower and work you way up as you get closer.
AAR is possibly the most difficult skill in BMS (well, it was until Mavericks got ‘fixed’ … lol). It takes a lot of practice just to get a ‘cleared to contact’ call. Now, in 4.33, even more practice since we no longer have the artificial ‘tractor beam’ effect when you are in position.
The other possibility with the up/down pitch is pilot induced oscillation. Happens a lot in close on the tanker. Very, VERY small adjustments are needed in close.
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I’m having great difficulties with this tutorial.
I’ll preface this by stating I have watched several videos on this procedure, and it has never looked as it does when I use this tutorial.
The first problem I have is that the aircraft constantly pulls to the left. It will not fly straight. The second problem I have is that when I reach the tanker the aircraft is constantly pitching up and down. I know there’s jet wash from the engines, but, again, I have never seen such violent pitching up and down in any BMS refueling video.
I tried a “hands off” experiment with the navigation scenario. Not a problem flying straight. I then tried using the same wind conditions, 320 at 13 knots, instead of 178 at 13 knots. In the refueling tutorial the aircraft continued to pull left.
Is there some kind of issue with this scenario, or is it just meant to be like this?
Be sure that you can see lights of tanker after you said “ready to refuel”. Beacause in case lights are not online it means tanker even slightly change its alt. Sometimes during the approachg “forgets” if you do too long that you have checked in. I just made some min. ago my first ever one contact refuel and I experienced this. If you wish can upload the video about it.
I also recommend to use speed brake to control your speed with throttle is literally impossible. In case you change RPG you also change thrust force and because for level flight the thurst-AoA is “coupled”… So set just a little bit ot higher thrust which for ex. could accel you no more than 307-308 CAS and use manual speedbrake close/open to maintain 300-301 kts.
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It is the “light” version. I’ll have to try the heavy one to see if that’s any different.
I hadn’t thought of using trim.
I’ll have to try a lower approach. It’s pitching up and down wthout input, and then I’m making small adjustments to keep it level.
I live in hope that it’s all a downhill ride from here.
Thanks for your help.
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BMS training manual
In this training mission you have two scenarios to master. The first one is a usual post target refuelling with a relatively light aircraft. The second one is a pre target refuelling with a fully loaded aircraft.
Both happen in daylight at the usual refuel altitude and speed with the F-16B block 15 or F-16D block 40. The light scenario takes place on the east coast of South Korea with a KC-10 and the heavy scenario happens on the west coast of South Korea with a KC-135. The techniques for AAR are the same and will be explained once for both scenarios. The main difference will be the sluggish response from the heavily loaded F-16 and the tanker legs that are longer in the low gross weight scenario which makes the AAR easier for novice pilots with less turns from the tanker.Be sure that you can see lights of tanker after you said “ready to refuel”. Beacause in case lights are not online it means tanker even slightly change its alt. Sometimes during the approachg “forgets” if you do too long that you have checked in. I just made some min. ago my first ever one contact refuel and I experienced this. If you wish can upload the video about it.
Wrong:
BMS training manual again5.2 Precontact (…) Be advised there are no director lights at this stage. You just need to hold position a few feet behind the boom. When the boom operator is happy with your stabilised position he will call: “call sign, cleared to contact position”. At that point the red director lights F (Forward) and U (Up) will switch on to give further positional guidance. Start to move slowly towards the boom. The boom operator will offset the boom left or right to let your aircraft slide into the contact position.
I also recommend to use speed brake to control your speed with throttle is literally impossible. In case you change RPG you also change thrust force and because for level flight the thurst-AoA is “coupled”… So set just a little bit ot higher thrust which for ex. could accel you no more than 307-308 CAS and use manual speedbrake close/open to maintain 300-301 kts.
Disagree the use of speedbrake will generate too large speed difference. Just use (or rather think) control input and adapt your speed to the speed of the tanker. That’s the reason why we advise to fly formation first before attemting to refuel
By using speedbrake you will constantly chase the speedPlease gents when you advise ppl, please try to check what you are saying for accuracy.
Having these wrong information is really not helping -
Disagree the use of speedbrake will generate too large speed difference.
Did you read my post? I said manual control and not fully open/close. I have X52 Pro and I found impossible to make even just short conctact with using throttle instead of very small speedbrake adjustments. Period. I alway did this way not only in BMS4.33… Should I upload the vid?
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Did you read my post? I said manual control and not fully open/close. I have X52 Pro and I found impossible to make even just short conctact with using throttle instead of very small speedbrake adjustments. Period. I alway did this way not only in BMS4.33… Should I upload the vid?
Same stick, but set up different. My Speedbrake is either open or closed …. toggle only. So I have to use throttle only to control speed. And it is fine. Just practice … same as anything else.
Point being, what works for one person, might not work for another. With AAR we each need to find the ‘technique’ that works for us.
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You can use the boards only on the initial join up formation with the tanker. Than constantly adjust your throttle and slowly move towards the boom. Also make sure your altitude is stablized. You have to really constant play around with your stick and throttle. You need to be patenit and take your time at first.
Once you make contact with the boom you have to slow move your throttle up since your aircraft is gaining weight during the refuel.
The one thing I noticed very different is the tanker speed. It seems like its initial cruise the speed is 270 than for refeul its at 300. The tanker also changes very quickly.
Another thing is that in the block 40 the hud kinda of blocks the tanker lights for me. Maybe this is only one issue with my fov setup.
I think the main thing you have to imagine that you are flying formation with the tanker and than you have to fly in this imaginary box behind the tanker.
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finally with 4.33, after practising for about an hour,
I can make contact a few times,
however I am having difficulties to stay on the position,
after a few seconds, I always get disconnected.do you guys have some tips how to manage the throttle to stay in the position?
it seems I am either too fast or too slow almost all the time. -
finally with 4.33, after practising for about an hour,
I can make contact a few times,
however I am having difficulties to stay on the position,
after a few seconds, I always get disconnected.do you guys have some tips how to manage the throttle to stay in the position?
it seems I am either too fast or too slow almost all the time.Move your throttle slightly up/down. Practise this and you will see that you find the balance to stay in the perfect position.
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Using Speedbrake is not necessary no matter what stick you use. Timing a corrective input to stop or slow your momentum is the proper method to use. When you tap, and I mean tap, your throttle up or down and start moving forward or back, you need to anticipate when to tap the throttle in the opposite direction to stop the momentum before you go too far. This works the same for the stick inputs. This is also the same technique you should use in formation flying. It takes practice and patience. Before you know it, you will be refueling without problem. Know your controls and how they act/react to your inputs.
As far as pulling left, I have flown 100’s of refueling missions and never had an issue with pulling unless I had released a weapon from one side and had an unbalanced aircraft. After you call the tanker Ready For Fuel, it will slowly descend to it’s refueling altitude, normally around 22000. So while the tanker is slowly descending, it is normal for you to porpoise a little while trying to stay in position. Just try to minimize the porpoising as much as possible.
I hope this helps.One more note: The X-52 is probably the hardest HOTAS to learn how to control for formation flight or refueling. I have worked with several people using this same HOTAS, and I have one in my closet collecting dust. But, you can still do it, and there are lots of people that will tell you once they figured it out, they can refuel on a regular basis.
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I managed to make contact briefly, then most likely slowed up a fraction too much and lost contact again. The hardest part is dealing with the jet wash as it’s hard to predict the changes in pitch.
Hopefully an update will fix the loadout. But on a positive note it does introduce the need to use trim.
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Hopefully an update will fix the loadout. But on a positive note it does introduce the need to use trim.Not really necessary. It’s a very small asymmetry.
Try with a one HARM gone, or a couple of ‘extra’ MK-82’s on one side ….
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You guys should try the one centimeter of throttle-movement available on the Extreme 3D Pro, as I’ve had to
As several people have said, and maybe formulated best by MailMan, the clue is to constantly adjust, and know your aircraft enough so that you can make corrections to speed/pitch-tendencies before they happen. Try also to focus on breathing, relaxing your hand (don’t squeeze that stick do death, won’t do you much good), and get the excitement out of your body, it will go a lot smoother once you do. In my experience, this is the sort of thing that is exceedingly difficult until that one time you got it just right, and then suddenly AAR becomes one of your favourite tasks (it’s not lame-looking to hang 3 meters under a tanker as if you’re glued to that probe) . Hang in there!
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Blaming it on your HOTAS as being the only reason you cannot refuel, is not really an option. There are people on Falcon Online who can do aerial refuelling on Realistic with an xbox 360 controller.
The speedbrakes are a crutch. They are a useful tool, but they are one you should resort to after screwing up. For a skillful rejoin on the tanker, you should not need throttle adjustments. For a less than skillful rejoin, you may need throttle adjustments, but should not need speedbrakes. For a rejoin going wrong, you may be able to save it with speedbrakes - or you may need to accept the overrun and check away from the formation. Solving a rejoin with geometry is better practice of your BFM principles, and of your airmanship, than is solving it with throttle.
For the actual refuelling, its just formation flying. Make small throttle adjustments in sequence to adjust position, make small sequential bank angle changes to adjust rate of heading drift, which in turn influences actual heading, which in turn influences position.
Im not sure what the RL limits are on permissible asymmetry during AAR. We’ve likely all exceeded them at one time or another. Just adds another dimension to the routine!
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I’m curious how do you do a rejoin with the tanker without the use the of the throttle?
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I’m curious how do you do a rejoin with the tanker with the use the of the throttle?
Me too. I was not able to set speed with throttla within 5-6 kts and after every throttle move because of AoA and thrust AoA maintaining the level flight was impossible to me. I will upload the video about my attempt even it is quite LQ becase Shadowplay cannot record well BMS4 (distorsion issue), I forgot to turn on Fraps.
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Sorry I meant without the use of the throttle.
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finally with 4.33, after practising for about an hour,
I can make contact a few times,
however I am having difficulties to stay on the position,
after a few seconds, I always get disconnected.do you guys have some tips how to manage the throttle to stay in the position?
it seems I am either too fast or too slow almost all the time.I’ve suggested this techique before and I found it very helpful during my initial attempts at staying in position after the initial contact:
Start see-sawing the throttle between mil power (towards the first detent before it “clicks” on the Cougar) and halfway back towards idle in a steady rythm at a frequency of 2-3 seconds. This way, the engine RPM will stay a bit higher and the a/c will respond to the changing input more quickly.
These days, I usually manage to find the “sweet spot” where only minor throttle adjustments need to be made, but esp. during pre-contact and lineup I find the “see-sawing” of the throttle invaluable when trying to stabilize.
I hope this helps, there aren’t many things in BMS that taste sweeter than staying on the boom for an entire tanker leg (I haven’t managed to connect / stay connected during a turn yet beyond a second or two) and being able to say “tanker, done refuelling” over VAC with the gauges indicating “full”
Also, remember to wiggle your toes and fingers from time to time. The real folks are supposedly doing this, and so should we
All the best & good luck,
Uwe
PS: I’ve created an AAR praccy mission for KTO, feel free to give it a try if you’d like some traffic around or other flights refuelling that you can fly formation with in order to practise stabilizing the jet.
