Is it more real for operating AGM65?
-
in 4.32, i can roll back maverick sensor to origin position by pressing TMS-down.
now in 4.33, the only way is switch to MRM mode then switch back to AG mode.
this looks weird to me, the weapon designer didn’t setup a “cancel” button. is it true in real F-16? -
AFAIK, TMS Aft should return the mav to the SPI, as mav slews dont affect the SPI.
-
in 4.32, i can roll back maverick sensor to origin position by pressing TMS-down.
now in 4.33, the only way is switch to MRM mode then switch back to AG mode.
this looks weird to me, the weapon designer didn’t setup a “cancel” button. is it true in real F-16?From what I could gather, yes. Whenever slewed directly, the Maverick LOS stays in the commanded direction (until it cant because of gimbals). I had trouble to believe it too, dont worry
@Blu3wolf, I’m curious to see where you saw that TMS-down returns Mav LOS to sensor position. In BMS at least, it doesnt.
-
From what I could gather, yes. Whenever slewed directly, the Maverick LOS stays in the commanded direction (until it cant because of gimbals). I had trouble to believe it too, dont worry
@Blu3wolf, I’m curious to see where you saw that TMS-down returns Mav LOS to sensor position. In BMS at least, it doesnt.
When the cursor is released, the Mav LOS stays where commanded like you say. I agree that BMS does not return the Mav LOS to the SPI LOS on a TMS Down. To be entirely honest, its a little unclear exactly, the section of the manual describing it.
1-443 In VIS submode, the HUD is initialised as the SOI and the weapon seeker head is slaved to the HUD TD box. Prior to designating a target, the TD box is caged about the FPM. The TD box can be positioned on the target either by maneuvering the aircraft or with the cursor switch. The target is designated by positioning the TMS up. Designating the target ground-stabilises the TD box on or near the target and automatically moves the SOI to the MFD WPM format. Target rejection is commanded by manually selecting the HUD as the SOI via the DMS and positioning the TMS down.
That part details target rejection in VIS mode. Simple enough, but it doesnt really explicitly detail what happens with the seeker position during the target rejection. A more recent document had this to say on the topic, as well as confirming the VIS behavior above:
2.8.12.1.11.3 Slewing Maverick LOS does not affect the SPI. Maverick LOS slews do not affect the other sensors. When the pilot stops slewing, the Maverick will not enter track but will remain at the LOS where slewing stopped.
2.8.12.1.11.4 TMS fwd with the SOI on the WPN page commands the Maverick to track. TMS aft breaks track, and the Maverick will return to the commanded LOS.
2.8.12.1.11.5 The ASL in these modes provides relative bearing to the target/SPI, not the point tracked by the Maverick, and is stabilized like CCRP. There is no solution cue.
The commanded LOS mentioned depends on the mode used.
2.8.12.1 AGM-65 SMS/WPN Page. If an AGM-65 weapon is selected, peculiar EO options are available. The following EO submodes are accessible:
PRE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to SPI, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
VIS – Visual delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to TD box, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
BORE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to its bore LOS, AGM-65 LOS in BORE.If you are in PRE with the WPN format as SOI, and with the Mav tracking, and you position TMS down, the Mav should point to the SPI. In VIS, it should return to the position of the TD box. In BORE, it should return to its boresighted position (3° below the gun cross iirc?).
Found out why the less than 30 degree angle of bank limit is in there, too… Seems its a recommendation rather than a fixed limit. The maverick self lofts initially after launch, with a 3.5G pull above the horizon - based on the upwards direction relative to the lift vector. So if you roll inverted and fire, then it would pull down towards the ground. Having more than 30 ish degrees angle of bank would tend to give that loft more horizontal component which would start to screw with the solution, as well as take away from the vertical component, which would also screw the solution. Neat.
-
If you are in PRE with the WPN format as SOI, and with the Mav tracking, and you position TMS down, the Mav should point to the SPI. In VIS, it should return to the position of the TD box. In BORE, it should return to its boresighted position (3° below the gun cross iirc?).
Wrong!
The BMS behavior is correct.
For PRE mode this DOESN’T mean what you think:
2.8.12.1.11.4 TMS fwd with the SOI on the WPN page commands the Maverick to track. TMS aft breaks track, and the Maverick will return to the commanded LOS.
Commanded LOS is NOT the SPI LOS, but it means that it’s returning to LOS which you can manage.
I assure you that the Maverick behavior of TMS-AFT in PRE mode is correct, and yes there is a need to enter DGFT or MRM in order to reset the initialized Mav’s LOS. I hope you believe that I didn’t blew that out of my vivid imagination :mrgreen: (Even if you won’t find that anywhere in the docs).
For VIS mode however, I’m not 100% sure, maybe there is some limitation in the code that is a bit problematic to overcome, I’ll try to check that at some point, although I guess we all agree it’s a very small details. IIRC the current behavior is that if you already slewed the Mavs LOS from the WPN page then you will need to reset with DGFT/MRM, but as long as you didn’t slew them, you can reset back to unstabilized HUD mode with TMS-AFT.
-
as long as you didn’t slew them, you can reset back to unstabilized HUD mode with TMS-AFT.
yes, but u can’t redirect to another enemy group quickly, this is very important in battlefield.
-
yes, but u can’t redirect to another enemy group quickly, this is very important in battlefield.
mmm… How long does it take to enter DGFT and reset? 2 clicks, maybe 2 seconds if you are slow, no? Besides, it’s maybe not perfect but this is how the real system works
-
Perhaps you have it right there I-Hawk. I dont happen to have an F-16 on my person to test it out on, though.
I spotted this which details when the Mav gets returned to the slaved condition, and that would seem to support what you are saying about the TMS down causing it to break track but otherwise stay where it is.
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation. If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track. If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
2.8.12.1 AGM-65 SMS/WPN Page. If an AGM-65 weapon is selected, peculiar EO options are available. The following EO submodes are accessible:
PRE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to SPI, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
VIS – Visual delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to TD box, AGM-65 LOS in SLAVE.
BORE – Preplanned delivery mode, AGM-65 slaved to its bore LOS, AGM-65 LOS in BORE.So, it would be TMS down to break the track, then either DMS down or up depending on the mode (VIS or PRE). That seems like it would be quite intuitive in operation, actually.
-
Once slew with WPN SOI is done then slave to pre-designate sensor is broken. Slaved relationship can be resumed without change of master mode.
In PRE or VIS mode & WPN-SOI, TMS aft only commands a break lock to the missile (same behavior in BORE). Slaved pre-designate condition is not resumed.
In PRE/VIS mode & FCR-SOI/HUD-SOI (FCR for PRE, HUD for VIS), TMS aft commands a reset of the slaved condition (for selected missile) without change of master mode required.When a TGM-65 is used firing feedback is simulated by blanking the video feed (as a real missile would do as it leaves) which requires re-entering AG to reset this simulated missile video blackout. Any master mode change out of and back into AG is acceptable but of course MRM/DGFT are the most convenient. This is only necessary for the training missiles which do not leave the rail and need a method to resume video once “fired.” Of course if it is wanted to reset all Maverick to boresight leaving and entering AG MM will work.
My interpretation of PRE is that FCR does not require FTT/MTT to shift SOI to WPN, only that there is a successful ground stabilize when TMS forward is pressed. It should be possible to direct a PRE Maverick to a non-radar significant empty terrain and still SOI will change and slew is possible.
However with TGP active (handoff override in effect) it is explicit that TMS aft the Maverick resumes the slave to TGP/SPI even with Maverick SOI immediately after boresight OSB is pressed. Is this true for non-TGP-handoff-override active in PRE/VIS? I don’t know. I think it is probably disruptive to force Maverick LOS to SPI immediately on TMS aft (what if you just want to change the target 10’ to the left?) but if pre-designate sensor is made SOI and TMS aft is done to reject target and resume per-designate slave condition then I can see it is sensible to return Maverick LOS to SPI at that time.
EDIT: According to underlined text above it suggests that if you SOI away from WPN without Maverick tracking (whatever slew mode is) that SLAV (PRE/VIS) or BORE (BORE) behavior is resumed so a return to slave-to-LOS behavior.
If for example a Maverick was tracking a tank after VIS designation I don’t think it is necessary to WPN-SOI TMS aft and then HUD-SOI TMS aft to try another attack. I think it is sufficient to change HUD-SOI, TMS aft which should command “target rejection” breaking both Maverick track and returning TD to FPM on HUD with only one TMS aft press.
-
If for example a Maverick was tracking a tank after VIS designation I don’t think it is necessary to WPN-SOI TMS aft and then HUD-SOI TMS aft to try another attack. I think it is sufficient to change HUD-SOI, TMS aft which should command “target rejection” breaking both Maverick track and returning TD to FPM on HUD with only one TMS aft press.
If the mav is not tracking, then a DMS up should reslave the mav LOS to the TD box. If the mav is tracking, then a DMS up will not reslave the mav LOS - but it will, if TMS down is made after the DMS up.
In EO-PRE, you can either use TMS or DMS to get the SOI to the WPN format. A successful FTT will automatically transition the SOI to the WPN format, but a DMS down will achieve the same thing. However, the SOI will only automatically transition SOI to the WPN format with a valid FTT lock on. To transition SOI without a valid FTT lock on, you have to use the DMS instead. Alternatively the automated TGP operation can be used, in which case the SOI remains on the TGP anyway.
-
Guys, again you will have to believe what I’m saying… not everything in the docs is 100% correct and sometimes docs aren’t explaining enough to understand EXACTLY what is happening (e.g the SPI stuff, you will not find the exact description in the 3-4).
-
Well, I believe that not everything is 100% correct. People make typos. I can see why docs might not explain every technical behind the scenes detail, as well.
I cant believe that switching MM would be the only way to reinitialise the Mav though. I could believe it being impossible to reset the LOS - Id think it stupid, but I could see it being a design oversight. I could see the MM change being A way to do it - as it changes SOI, which according to the manual, is the way to reset the LOS back to the SLAVE condition. I cant see it being the only possible way to do so, though.
The biggest thing I am questioning is whether this is something I-Hawk is getting from a source closer to an F-16… but for a different block of F-16. Lots of tape differences out there. Could be one of them?
-
I think I said everything I could say here, let’s just agree to disagree
The behavior will not change.
