Saitek X-56
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What do you think about X-56
Prons
Cons
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Get a better setup if you can afford it…
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I like it, a definite step up from the X-52. Plenty of hats so you can assign TMS, DMS, CMS, Trim, COMMS all without needing to use shift states, the mini-stick can be a bit tricky to use as your radar cursor but with a bit of set up can be pretty good. The software is a bit finicky but i have enjoyed it for what it is, an entry level HOTAS.
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Currently love my force sensing x65, but if I had to replace it I would go with the x55.
The TM Warthog is stupidly overpriced.
The TM Cougar is utter junk unless “fixed” by expensive upgrades (I know as I own one from 2001).
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That X-65F is very interesting indeed, unfortunately it is extremely rare down under - so you don’t see them at all for sale and if when you do, it’s extremely expensive.
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x-56 is the best hotas on the market IMO, best software, best amount of buttons and feel, dials, ease of setup, no POV hat problem.
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x-56 is the best hotas on the market IMO, best software, best amount of buttons and feel, dials, ease of setup, no POV hat problem.
My vote is for the X65F
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Get a better setup if you can afford it…
Define better….what a warthog? not worth the extra money IMO its just junk inside. They are all junk inside just depends how much you value junk. None of the sticks are MIL SPEC as they do not quote a MIL SPEC number and so there is no reference to the specifications met or implied. If anyone has seen a MIL SPEC number quoted by any of the companies please correct me…even SAITEK (Logitech) Claim Mil Grade or words to that effect its all marketing mumbo jumbo AKA BS!
Don’t have any problems with my X56 works beautifully, wait tell a lie I did have ghost switching and turned out to be a USB power issue solved with a powered USB hub and had no problem since. And my other problem is not really a problem for most, but the crappy feel of the throttle tension mechanism forced me to mod mine. See my thread on that under the SAITEK thread.
IMO spending lots $ on hardware doesn’t make you a better Virtual Pilot (VP), makes it easier with more controls at your fingertips though.
PRACTICE and a good setup for the controls you have is what will make you a better VP.
I had the money to by a WH but chose not to. My reasons where:
1. Could get more things with the money saved, MFDs and Rudder pedals
2. The switch layout excluding the Stick is nothing like a VIPER
3. The negative feed back on inter webs re broken internals (Albeit circumstances unknown) Target software issues etcPoint 3 was minor first two were critical in my decision process though. Honestly I would have been happy with the WH if I went that way though I dont think there is anything wrong with it other than the rediculous price point. I also think the X56 is over priced.
X56 is a great stick shop around for the best price.
cheers
Nudge
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My vote is for the X65F
Hey Sobad whats the POV hat problem mine has one?
Cheers Nudge
HAHA my bad Sobad it wasn’t you it was thereisnotime my new nickname shall be ‘MYBAD’
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That X-65F is very interesting indeed, unfortunately it is extremely rare down under - so you don’t see them at all for sale and if when you do, it’s extremely expensive.
Tazz I wish I could have found a used one when I was looking to buy…know someone that through one in the bin because he gave up flying :mad: I would have paid him for it…handsomely too
I am very jello right now
cheers
Nudge
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Define better….what a warthog?
Depends on how you define better. For me, yes, a WH. I wonder why all the fuss about MIL SPEC though…. AFAIK, Thrustmaster makes no such claims for the WH. All it says is that it replicates the same amount of pressure required to press buttons as in the real hardware, but that is nowhere near claiming MIL SPEC. For all you know, they just used stiffer springs or whatever material to provide more resistance.
Don’t have any problems with my X56 works beautifully, wait tell a lie I did have ghost switching and turned out to be a USB power issue solved with a powered USB hub and had no problem since. And my other problem is not really a problem for most, but the crappy feel of the throttle tension mechanism forced me to mod mine. See my thread on that under the SAITEK thread.
The WH has its issues as well, it is not perfect. Others have complained about sticktion, there was a spate of bricked throttle units in the past, I myself had a bad WH base that TM replaced… so again, it depends on how you define better. When I bought the WH, it was only a few months after release and it did not have the track record it has now, so it was a gamble for me. If you’d have asked me if I’d recommend the TM WH 1 or 2 years after purchasing it, I probably would not recommend it as much but after almost 7 years of use, you can see how it has “proven” itself in my case.
IMO spending lots $ on hardware doesn’t make you a better Virtual Pilot (VP), makes it easier with more controls at your fingertips though.
Indeed, this is true. Good hardware won’t make you a better pilot, but bad hardware will make you a worse pilot. I purchased and built my setup so that any failing would be mine alone. I want it to be that if I cannot connect to the boom or if I missed my target or if I cannot make a guns kill, that will be up to ME and not as a consequence of my hardware. Therefore, my view is that good hardware will show me my weaknesses and thus allow me to improve as a pilot.
I had the money to by a WH but chose not to. My reasons where:
1. Could get more things with the money saved, MFDs and Rudder pedals
2. The switch layout excluding the Stick is nothing like a VIPER
3. The negative feed back on inter webs re broken internals (Albeit circumstances unknown) Target software issues etc1. Fair point.
2. Nothing else outside a Cougar or CH throttles comes close to a Viper’s throttle. The Saitek throttles do come pretty close… however, when I purchased my WH, I was playing DCS A10C at the time
3. You can find similar stories on the internet for Saitek stuff. Like I said, I purchased my WH on Dec 2010 so there was little feedback at the time, so it was a gamble on my end.Point 3 was minor first two were critical in my decision process though. Honestly I would have been happy with the WH if I went that way though I dont think there is anything wrong with it other than the rediculous price point. I also think the X56 is over priced.
Well, if you think the X56 is overpriced, then I can see how you can say the WH is overpriced. What I find funny is that you still recommend it. I use a different metric in determining the value of my gear. A £50 item that I will not use is overpriced. A £20 item that I will not use is overpriced. A £300 item that I use everyday is cheap. Let me give you a simple example:
The WH can be purchased from my favorite online seller for £306. Assuming you only fly once a week and only one hour for each flight, that is £306/104 weeks (2-year warranty on the WH) = £2.94 per week or £2.94 per hour over that 2-year span. Same assumption but take 7 years as in my case, that is £306/364 weeks = £0.84 per hour. All of a sudden, it’s not that expensive. Also note that I initially used this on DCS A10C and had 2 weekly flights which would easily last 3-4 hours per flight, not to mention whatever practicing or testing I would do during the week. This was the norm for the initial 2 years of my WH’s life. After that was about 2-3 years of flying BMS with at least 1-2 flights per week and each flight lasting 1-1.5 hours, again not counting practicing or testing done. I don’t do as much flying now due to RL pressures, but I still “unwind” by doing a couple of A-A refuelling runs each night I can, and this would easily push me over the 1hr/week assumption at the start of the example. All of a sudden, my £0.84 per hour becomes a very conservative estimate. Considering the performance of the WH, that is very cheap in my book and it gets cheaper and cheaper as time goes on.
I also checked my records and I purchased the TM WH for £270 at the time (Dec 2010).
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Hi ICE
Money was not an issue I am just saying the sum of parts does not add up to the RRP for these products (Not just the WH). Essentially the manufacturers have the ability to set there profit margins sky high.
The MIL-SPEC term came more from talking to people on TS and forums over the years and was more their perceived interpretation of the marketing mumbo jumbo.
here’s an example of this sort of thing from the Logitech SiteMODERN, MILITARY-GRADE SIMULATION taken from their website.
Check white text in blue box https://gaming.logitech.com/en-au/product/x56-space-flight-vr-simulator-controller
Don’t get me wrong I would own a WH if I had of stayed with DCS for sure and even on the day I ordered the X56 it was still 50/50 with regards to which way I was going to go with the purchase. If CH had of updated the internals of their range they to may have been a contender.
Reading other posts on the forums and not just here on BMS it’s quite apparent that most people are associating ‘Best HOTAS’ with highest price point. I think the ‘Best HOTAS’ is one that bests suits your style of flying, your budget and your personal taste. For me similarity to the VIPER in switch layout was the more important than price point whilst for others I think there hardware is more of a trophy for them. Got to have the best of the best of the best and be better than the rest. This was something I have seen more often in the IL2 CLOD genre and not so much in BMS whilst some of the best BMS F4 pilots I know still fly with an X52 or even a 3dPro or combo of.
From a neutral stand point probably the most important thing for anyone to do is to sit down and decide what their priorities are with regards to a HOTAS. Things such as:
Price point;
Value for the money (Perceived and actual);
Switch layout;
Being the coolest kid on the block (Best of the Best mentality);
Public feedback;
Personal Preference for a specific brand;
Other games/simulations played with the HOTAS (Space Sims for example); and
Anything that anyone else may think of adding.Honestly I don’t think you could wrong with your choice of HOTAS provided you have used due diligence in addressing all of the above points relative to yourself. It took me three months of go back and forth until I decided on the order that those priorities fell in for me at that time.
Your cost analysis is a really good way to look at value for money based on frequency of use and period of ownership vs usage etc and could be applied to all hardware items too.
cheers
Nudge
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I don’t really mind the profit margin issue…. they are after all a business and as long as they make a product that I feel is worth the asking price, then I’m happy to buy it. Again, I go back to my metric… a £50 item with a £5 profit is still expensive if all it does is act as a paperweight. A £300 item with a £180 profit that I use everyday is still worth it for me. If TM determines they need that £180 profit to justify the R&D, marketing, manufacturing, etc. and I’ve determined that the £300 item will be good value for me, then I buy it. If I think the total price is too high, then I wait for a sale or buy 2nd-hand.
I LOL @ Logi for talking about military-grade… are they using metal in their construction of the X-56? Or is it just marketing spiel? Like “surgical precision!!” Errrr, no. If you are ham-fisted, a surgically-precise stick won’t help you… in fact, it will only highlight your ham-fistedness
As for best HOTAS = most expensive HOTAS, this is not the case. There are silly setups that are much more expensive than the TM WH, sticks costing around $2,000 for a base unit or something like that. Then there are the force-modded WHs/Cougars, which easily add €300 to the price of the HOTAS. And so on. For the budget conscious simmer, the best HOTAS is the one he can afford. It’s no use harping about the TM WH if all he can afford is a Logi Extreme 3D Pro. In that situation, the “best HOTAS” is better than a keyboard. For those with a little more money, well, I prefer saving for longer and just buying a WH outright whereas others would probably “step up” to the more expensive sticks as their skills and budget allows… however, even if they still ended up with a WH, you will find that when all is said and done, they eventually paid A LOT more than the sticker price of the WH even if they sold all their previous HOTAS setups.
You are correct in saying the “best HOTAS” is what suits the person’s style of flying. Some people do best with a force-sensing stick. Some do fine with a stock WH. Some need to open up the WH to change the gimbals or put a different grease compound in. In other sims, some prefer to fly with a stick extension and even then, these extensions come in three or more different lengths! Try out what fits you best for the sim/aircraft you want to fly!
I did not go with Saiteks because it was the X52 and X52Pro that was available at the time I purchased my gear and by then, there were a lot of posts regarding the issues with these setups. I did not choose CH because I thought the designs looked old and I would not like a plastic stick. I owned a Cougar at the time and knew I liked the metal feel, so it was either a X52Pro or a WH… and like I said, I’ve read about a few issues with the Saiteks… plus it was Christmas and the WH was on sale.
You will find that some people mention their setups as a point of pride, “being the coolest kid on the block” as you say. But can you blame them? They’ve worked hard to save the money for that setup, they’ve had to open up their HOTAS to install some mod, so they’re naturally quite proud of being where they are in regards to their setup. What’s the difference between one guy saying he’s got a FSSB R3 Warthog, MFG Crosswind pedals, a 4K monitor, and TM Cougar MFDs vs one guy saying he’s got an i7 7700K OC’ed to 4.8GHz on a custom waterloop, 64GB RAM, 1TB NVMe drive, and 2x 1080Ti cards?
Boys and their toys. I think what’s more important is how those two guys give back to the community. Are they here just to brag? Or are they here to provide honest, constructive feedback about their setups in relation to BMS? -
Nothing else outside a Cougar or CH throttles comes close to a Viper’s throttle.
While the CH Fighter/Combat Stick comes close, the Pro Throttle is nothing like the F-16 TQS. That’s one of the main reasons why I wouldn’t buy a CH setup today - I can’t get passed that throttle.
The worst thing is that it doesn’t even arc so it’s really just a flat slider. So it’s just the Cougar and the TM TQS.
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While the CH Fighter/Combat Stick comes close, the Pro Throttle is nothing like the F-16 TQS. That’s one of the main reasons why I wouldn’t buy a CH setup today - I can’t get passed that throttle.
The worst thing is that it doesn’t even arc so it’s really just a flat slider. So it’s just the Cougar and the TM TQS.http://vig.extremetech.com/media/images/154309-ch-stick-and-throttle.jpg
It came real close for me until you disect the internals and find old 8k pots inside 1980’s tech at 2000’s price point!
Still a good reliable stick though just not enough resolution in the axis at that price point. The TQS if you look inside is a glorified single axis mouse only it uses dated pots to measure position!
I think although its past the test of time I feel time has caught up with it.
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Of course profit is good for business but I feel all these items are 15 to 30% over priced.
What do you think about X-56
Prons
Cons
=?I think what it comes down to is that if you have come up with your own list as above then it would look something like this:
If you have a limited budget:
Price point;
Value for the money (Perceived and actual);
Personal Preference for a specific brand;
Public feedback;
Other games/simulations played with the HOTAS (Space Sims for example);
Switch layout;
Anything that anyone else may think of adding; and
Being the coolest kid on the block (Best of the Best mentality).If you are looking for something as close to real as possible (As I was):
Switch layout;
Value for the money (Perceived and actual);
Price point;
Personal Preference for a specific brand;
Other games/simulations played with the HOTAS (Space Sims for example);
Public feedback;
Anything that anyone else may think of adding; and
Being the coolest kid on the block (Best of the Best mentality).If you have be the coolest kid on the block;
Being the coolest kid on the block (Best of the Best mentality);
Public feedback;
Personal Preference for a specific brand;
Anything that anyone else may think of adding;
Switch layout;
Price point; and
Value for the money (Perceived and actual).Or something like that anyway LOL
Because I applied the above system at time of purchase I am quite happy with the X56 and if lasts as long or longer than my old second hand x52 I’ll be more than pleased with it. I don’t hesitate i recommending one.
Cheers
Nudge
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Of course profit is good for business but I feel all these items are 15 to 30% over priced.
Then wait for a sale!
I think it was 10-15% off when I bought mine. We can all lament on how overpriced certain components are, but there’s really little we can do about it aside from voting with your wallet at the end of the day.I think what it comes down to is that if you have come up with your own list as above
Indeed. Each purchase would have to “fit” into the “needs” of the individual. Some value price point above all, others value reliability, etc.
Because I applied the above system at time of purchase I am quite happy with the X56 and if lasts as long or longer than my old second hand x52 I’ll be more than pleased with it. I don’t hesitate i recommending one.
In my case, my TM WH has not seen the inside of the box since I got it in Dec 2010. I have WH covers for it too which has only been on for maybe a 3-5 days total time. Being on my simpit exposed to dust and grime and constant use and going strong for almost 7 years, I don’t hesitate recommending the WH
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It came real close for me until you disect the internals and find old 8k pots inside 1980’s tech at 2000’s price point!
Still a good reliable stick though just not enough resolution in the axis at that price point. The TQS if you look inside is a glorified single axis mouse only it uses dated pots to measure position!
I think although its past the test of time I feel time has caught up with it.
When Virpil Throttle is available (in December or January ) , I agree with you. Until that, Pro Throttle is still one of the best throttles available.
Old pots… Reliable pots with enough resolution. industrial plastic outside. This is a item made for lasting years. Great software.
There are mods available for Cougar and WH… For a reason, bad quality.
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