Different Air to Air fighting modes? Need help
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You don’t get to disagree, that’s the way it works. Not my opinion, fact. When the heater is in SLAVE mode, it is in SLAVE mode, whether you agree or not.
LOL,
I disagree. The Heater has no SLAVE mode. When slaved the a/c tells the seeker to look in a dirrection. The heater does not know that the MFD says “SLAVE” or “BORE”.From what I see the heater has a few states.
SPOT/SCAN (not sure if that is internal)
CAGED it can be SLAVED to radar. If not it looks stright a head for BORE sighting.
UNCAGED When uncaged it can track a heat sorce or the a/c can slaves it to HMS until it lock on a heat sorce. (not sure about BMS HMS)The “BORE” option on the MFD should suspends the a/c from slaving the seeker and I don’t know why anyone would use it. It’s not a toggle on the HOTAS.
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The Heater has no SLAVE mode. When slaved the a/c tells the seeker to look in a dirrection. The heater does not know that the MFD says “SLAVE” or “BORE”.
The heater knows what the MFD says because the aircraft is telling it what to do. Whether this is done internally by the heater or the SMS is again irrelevant, what matters is that the heater has a BORE mode and a SLAVE mode.
SPOT/SCAN (not sure if that is internal)
SPOT/SCAN are different functions from BORE/SLAVE, not sure why you bring those up. The heater can be configured as SPOT-BORE, SCAN-SLAVE or any combination.
CAGED it can be SLAVED to radar. If not it looks stright a head for BORE sighting.
Uhm… no. What it does caged or uncaged depends on if its in BORE or SLAVE and whether there is a target tracked by the FCR. And again, just because it looks along its boresight does not mean its in BORE mode.
UNCAGED When uncaged it can track a heat sorce or the a/c can slaves it to HMS until it lock on a heat sorce. (not sure about BMS HMS)
No. It needs to be in BORE to follow the JHMCS, caged or uncaged is irrelevant.
The “BORE” option on the MFD should suspends the a/c from slaving the seeker and I don’t know why anyone would use it.
Again, no. The BORE option allows it to be slaved to the JHMCS.
It’s not a toggle on the HOTAS.
Yes it is.
It seems to me you have quite a bit of reading to do before you can disagree again.
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The heater knows what the MFD says because the aircraft is telling it what to do. Whether this is done internally by the heater or the SMS is again irrelevant, what matters is that the heater has a BORE mode and a SLAVE mode.
Just like dumb bomb know what to do?..…they have CCIP mode and CCRP mode because thats what it says on the MFD. Would it be wrong to say that the seeker has BORE and SLAVE mode no matter what the mode is displayed on the MFD? This seem to be the root of your reply.
SPOT/SCAN are different functions from BORE/SLAVE, not sure why you bring those up. The heater can be configured as SPOT-BORE, SCAN-SLAVE or any combination.
just to point out how simple the heater logic is. 120 is very complex.
No. It needs to be in BORE to follow the JHMCS, caged or uncaged is irrelevant.
I question if the BMS model is r/l and would request r/l refferrance if I cared. I have not seen a need for 9X or JHMCS in BMS combat. (not many archer inbounds)
F4AF modeled a system when the heater saw a heat source it would auto lock because it was already uncaged. You didn’t have to hold the sight on the taget and uncage. However, I did see how the heater implementation to the JHMCS and the radar immplimention are similar. Maybe to keep the pilot from being confused. The BMS models favors locking the FCR with the JHMCS and firing the heater slaved to FCR. IIRC I played with a little a while back.
It’s not a toggle on the HOTAS.
Yes it is.
The BMS HOTAS Slave/Bore button is modeled as momentary switch. It’s not a toggle or latch or cycle modes.
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Just like dumb bomb know what to do?..…they have CCIP mode and CCRP mode because thats what it says on the MFD. Would it be wrong to say that the seeker has BORE and SLAVE mode no matter what the mode is displayed on the MFD? This seem to be the root of your reply.
Not the same thing. Bombs always work the same way. They just drop. Changing bombing modes only affects the way you as the pilot will deliver them.
Heaters on the other hand can work in different ways, and changing the SMS settings actually affects how they work. They behave according to the mode they are set at.
I question if the BMS model is r/l and would request r/l refferrance if I cared.
Sort of any undiscovered bugs, you shouldn’t even need to ask that.
F4AF modeled a system when the heater saw a heat source it would auto lock because it was already uncaged. You didn’t have to hold the sight on the taget and uncage. However, I did see how the heater implementation to the JHMCS and the radar immplimention are similar. Maybe to keep the pilot from being confused. The BMS models favors locking the FCR with the JHMCS and firing the heater slaved to FCR. IIRC I played with a little a while back.
You don’t need the FCR to use the JHMCS. The procedure is this: point the JHMCS at the target, switch the heater to BORE mode (either through the MFD or by pressing the enable switch) so that the heater diamond is now on the target, and uncage to lock. You can also do it in conjunction with the FCR but its not necessary.
The BMS HOTAS Slave/Bore button is modeled as momentary switch. It’s not a toggle or latch or cycle modes.
It toggles between the modes as long as its depressed, like IRL. Just a play on words here, it does toggle but not latch.
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again, would it be wrong to say that the seeker has BORE and SLAVE mode no matter what the mode is displayed on the MFD? This seem to be the root of your reply.
Not the same thing. Bombs always work the same way. They just drop. Changing bombing modes only affects the way you as the pilot will deliver them.
Heaters on the other hand can work in different ways, and changing the SMS settings actually affects how they work. They behave according to the mode they are set at.
Heaters just fly off the rail. The targeting system is what is changes.
Sort of any undiscovered bugs, you shouldn’t even need to ask that.
I didn’t ask. I don’t care. Wouldn’t call it a bug. Gas’s banner may apply here. <shrug>> You don’t need the FCR to use the JHMCS. The procedure is this: point the JHMCS at the target, switch the heater to BORE mode (either through the MFD or by pressing the enable switch) so that the heater diamond is now on the target, and uncage to lock. You can also do it in conjunction with the FCR but its not necessary
I never said the FCR was needed to use the JMCS.
It toggles between the modes as long as its depressed, like IRL. Just a play on words here, it does toggle but not latch.
yes a toggle can be a latch or momentary switch. The slave/bore switch is button not toggle.</shrug>
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Slave means it’s slaved to the FCR and the radar determines the target, bore means the seeker on the Aim9 itself (possibly aided by the HMCS, but you can use bore without the HMCS also) determines the target…this isn’t complicated guys. lol
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I’m typically not around by the time engagements become WVR.
Jinro my man! It’s weird buddy…you seem like a pretty smart guy (you’ve certainly posted some excellent advice, many times, here on this forum), but you’re often talking about being shot down, or having problems with enemy jammers etc…and i don’t get it! I wish i could see what you’re doing, because i can’t say (for the most part) i have the same problems…and from what it sounds like, you’re more or less using the same tactics as i use! It must just be something like not getting the radar pointed at the bandit(s) quick enough, maybe?..because from what i’ve read about your tactics you should be kicking ass up there!
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First time anybody complimented me on my lousy flying lol
Problems with jammers I’ve figured out thanks to some folks on the forum. Worked well until I tried against veteran MiGs, so I’m starting from the bottom and working my way up again. That particular instance my radar would not hold a lock so I pumped, then when reengaging I couldn’t lock them up fast enough to get a shot off. I know exactly how they did it–I’ve done it myself: force the bandit to go defensive, and if the picture is clear, keep pressing until they try to reengage and when they do, let a slammer fly. That’s the only way I manage to take out that MiG25 in the AMRAAM training TE.
So yeah, not being able to get the radar pointed in time–or getting into a WVR furball where I can’t tell who’s who and next thing I know there’s a maddog AA-12 inbound. There’s a way to make that slewing cursor more sensitive right? Might make TGP operation a bit twitchy though.
Speaking of radar and tactics, how is it that you lock up and shoot at two different targets at the same time? I’ve read the documentation on that but haven’t been successful in implementing it.
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First time anybody complimented me on my lousy flying lol
Problems with jammers I’ve figured out thanks to some folks on the forum. Worked well until I tried against veteran MiGs, so I’m starting from the bottom and working my way up again. That particular instance my radar would not hold a lock so I pumped, then when reengaging I couldn’t lock them up fast enough to get a shot off. I know exactly how they did it–I’ve done it myself: force the bandit to go defensive, and if the picture is clear, keep pressing until they try to reengage and when they do, let a slammer fly. That’s the only way I manage to take out that MiG25 in the AMRAAM training TE.
So yeah, not being able to get the radar pointed in time–or getting into a WVR furball where I can’t tell who’s who and next thing I know there’s a maddog AA-12 inbound. There’s a way to make that slewing cursor more sensitive right? Might make TGP operation a bit twitchy though.
Speaking of radar and tactics, how is it that you lock up and shoot at two different targets at the same time? I’ve read the documentation on that but haven’t been successful in implementing it.
I’ve never been able to fire 2 AMRAAMs simultaneously.
Usually i give ‘weapons free’ or ‘attack targets’ (usually the wingmen ask to engage), and keep an eye on the (i’m always in RWS with radar still scanning, never full STT radar lock) FCR to see if the #2bandit is still going hostile…if he does, i quickly bug (not lock) #2 up after my first launch goes ‘pitbull’ and launch at #2…but quite often one of my wingmen has shot at #2 already and he’s going defensive along with #1.
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I’m usually notching or pumping by the time my missile goes pitbull; when I check the debrief I’m glad I did. I always see 2-4 AA-12s launched at me but denied them the opportunity to track me. STT mode gets me flustered–sometimes it automatically goes from RWS to STT and wont’ let me go to SAM mode.
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I’m usually notching or pumping by the time my missile goes pitbull; when I check the debrief I’m glad I did. I always see 2-4 AA-12s launched at me but denied them the opportunity to track me. STT mode gets me flustered–sometimes it automatically goes from RWS to STT and wont’ let me go to SAM mode.
2-4 AA-12s eh? Hmm….are you launching at max range?..Are you making sure you’re higher than the bandit(s), or climbing if you’re not?. If you get higher you can have first launch and a launch with better energy. Are you checking with AWACS every few minutes for threats? If bandits get within 50 miles or less you should be climbing and tracking them on your FCR (or at least have FCR pointed at the area they’re coming from). I usually get 2500-5000ft above them.
Sometimes i get shot at…but quite often i get a shot off early enough that the bandit(s) has to go defensive before his shot goes autonomous, so his shot misses (beaming and chaff help of course).
If you do get an M in the RWR, then you’ve got to (all at once): dump chaff, hit burner to get to corner speed, get on the beam, and get your eyes out of the cockpit to watch for that missile…but i find it rarely gets to this point…usually once i’m on the beam and dumping chaff (and his shot doesn’t have that much energy because i was higher), this is all i need to do…and the M and/or the 27/29 disappears from the RWR and i’ve evaded his shot. No heavy Gs necessary.
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This is the last thing I’m going to say on this matter because you seem happier defending your incomplete knowledge of the systems involved than to actually educate yourself. Feel free after this to go back to describing and using BMS based on what you know from F4AF which is completely different. So here goes.
again, would it be wrong to say that the seeker has BORE and SLAVE mode no matter what the mode is displayed on the MFD? This seem to be the root of your reply.
If you don’t want to say that the heater has a BORE and SLAVE mode, you can say that the SMS has a BORE and SLAVE mode for heater employment. So based on that, when you enter dogfight, you are in SLAVE mode as indicated on the SMS. Not BORE as you said. End of story.
My whole point is that you need to be precise when describing avionics and weapons functions, esp answering a question asked by a newcomer who probably doesn’t know much. When a new guy asks you “how do I get the seeker in BORE mode?”, based on what you said your answer would probably be “TMS down to unlock the FCR target”; which is wrong. The correct answer is “press the SLAVE OSB so it changes to BORE”. Why? Because the guy that asked it might not want the missile to look down its boresight, he might want it in BORE mode so he can use it with the JHMCS.
Heaters just fly off the rail. The targeting system is what is changes.
Exactly. They don’t just fly off the rail. They also track targets. The targeting system is part of the missile.
I never said the FCR was needed to use the JMCS.
You certainly implied it by saying that its the method that BMS “favors”, which is just not true. Both work equally well. And the fact that you obviously have no idea what BORE mode is for (as you said yourself), shows that you don’t know how to use the JHMCS without the FCR.
yes a toggle can be a latch or momentary switch.
So we agree that this is a momentary toggle switch.
Slave means it’s slaved to the FCR and the radar determines the target, bore means the seeker on the Aim9 itself (possibly aided by the HMCS, but you can use bore without the HMCS also) determines the target…this isn’t complicated guys. lol
You can also use it in SLAVE mode without the FCR. It is always the seeker that determines the target. BORE and SLAVE just change where the seeker will be looking for the target. The FCR does not pass any target information to the AIM-9 like it does with the AIM-120, SLAVE mode just makes the AIM-9 seeker follow the FCR LOS if there is a target locked.
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You can also use it in SLAVE mode without the FCR. It is always the seeker that determines the target. BORE and SLAVE just change where the seeker will be looking for the target. The FCR does not pass any target information to the AIM-9 like it does with the AIM-120, SLAVE mode just makes the AIM-9 seeker follow the FCR LOS if there is a target locked.
100% correct.
Concerning AIM-9: SLAVE is just to say to the the missile’s seeker “look here” … once missile is fired, there it is no longer “slaved” at all … he is doing its own life with its own IR seeker tracking the target where its IR seeker is looking at.
But no longer the FRC one. -
@Kos
If you don’t want to say that the heater has a BORE and SLAVE mode, you can say that the SMS has a BORE and SLAVE mode for heater employment. So based on that, when you enter dogfight, you are in SLAVE mode as indicated on the SMS. Not BORE as you said. End of story.
You’re right I did use the wrong word. I should of said the “seeker goes into BORE” not the missile’s mode. So when you enter DGFT, without a lock, the seeker goes into BORE(3*below the HUD boresight) and “NO RAD”.
My whole point is that you need to be precise when describing avionics and weapons functions, esp answering a question asked by a newcomer who probably doesn’t know much. When a new guy asks you “how do I get the seeker in BORE mode?”, based on what you said your answer would probably be “TMS down to unlock the FCR target”; which is wrong. The correct answer is “press the SLAVE OSB so it changes to BORE”. Why? Because the guy that asked it might not want the missile to look down its boresight, he might want it in BORE mode so he can use it with the JHMCS.
The first lesson on heaters is to understand differrence between the seeker being slaved or bore. It obvious BORE/SLAVE on the MFD does not mean that the seeker is slaved or bored. Don’t know why your affraid to comment. The answer in the manual.
Not all F-16 are equiped with JHMCS. JHMCS was not listed in the OP. Learning the basic about heater should come before talking about JHMCS imho. It good that you brought it up, you didn’t have to beat the crap out of it. I totally forgot how JHMCS work. I don’t use it.You certainly implied it by saying that its the method that BMS “favors”, which is just not true. Both work equally well. And the fact that you obviously have no idea what BORE mode is for (as you said yourself), shows that you don’t know how to use the JHMCS without the FCR.
I do favor it, it easier. The seeker auto lock feature was assume in all the other flavors of F4 that I flew. It’s to bad if it’s not r/l. you don’t have lie about what I’m saying.
So we agree that this is a momentary toggle switch.
lol, yes there is a momentary toggle switch, it’s rare…don’t thing you could find a radioshack. The F-16 has at least one, none on the HOTAS.
EDITL: Maybe the Trigger and AP paddle could be called a toggle. -
Not all F-16 are equiped with JHMCS. JHMCS was not listed in the OP. Learning the basic about heater should come before talking about JHMCS imho. It good that you brought it up, you didn’t have to beat the crap out of it. I totally forgot how JHMCS work. I don’t use it.
I don’t know in USAF, but in Belgium, all F-16 pilot have his own HMCS. The night is the only moment that HMCS is not take because is better to fly with NVG’s instead. But it will not longer be the case in few month since the news NVG’s with HMCS symbology on it comes.
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I’ve never been able to fire 2 AMRAAMs simultaneously.
Usually i give ‘weapons free’ or ‘attack targets’ (usually the wingmen ask to engage), and keep an eye on the (i’m always in RWS with radar still scanning, never full STT radar lock) FCR to see if the #2bandit is still going hostile…if he does, i quickly bug (not lock) #2 up after my first launch goes ‘pitbull’ and launch at #2…but quite often one of my wingmen has shot at #2 already and he’s going defensive along with #1.
If you’re having trouble using RWS to fire 2 amraams, suggest using TWS mode. Then use TMS right to switch between targets. You should be able to attack 6 simultaneously with TWS.
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2-4 AA-12s eh? Hmm….are you launching at max range?..Are you making sure you’re higher than the bandit(s), or climbing if you’re not?. If you get higher you can have first launch and a launch with better energy. Are you checking with AWACS every few minutes for threats? If bandits get within 50 miles or less you should be climbing and tracking them on your FCR (or at least have FCR pointed at the area they’re coming from). I usually get 2500-5000ft above them.
Altitude may be my problem. I get a lock on them well before AMRAAM max range, but I don’t launch until it gets within Rpi and by then my M-pole is already 14 so I basically just chuck them an run. I haven’t had much luck hitting anything at max range. I’m always shy about using burners for some reason.
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You’re right I did use the wrong word. I should of said the “seeker goes into BORE” not the missile’s mode. So when you enter DGFT, without a lock, the seeker goes into BORE(3*below the HUD boresight) and “NO RAD”.
What you should have said is that the seeker looks straight ahead along the missile’s boresight, or that it is boresighted. “Goes into BORE” esp when you write it with all capitals just like it appears on the SMS, makes it seem like you mean it goes into BORE mode.
Look, the only reason I spent so much time in this thread is that half answers like the ones above can give new guys a tougher time than they might already have with the manuals. They can cause huge misunderstandings and make their learning process be based on wrong basic principles. Even I got confused about what you meant to say. When I answer a question like this, no matter how knowledgeable I might feel on the subject, I always write the answer with the manual in hand. Try to use the correct terminology when describing avionics functions to a new comer, and by correct I mean perfect.
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I don’t know in USAF, but in Belgium, all F-16 pilot have his own HMCS. The night is the only moment that HMCS is not take because is better to fly with NVG’s instead. But it will not longer be the case in few month since the news NVG’s with HMCS symbology on it comes.
THere’s no reason to buy 100* off bore heaters if you don’t have a HMCS. I don’t have TiR and using padlock with HMCS does not feel right if I don;t need a 100* heater against AI.