SA-10 launch, defending…
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(1) Well because you don’t do high G airspeed wasting turns is why. Missiles fly lead pursuit so you want to cause as many turning and angle problems for them as possible which expends their limited energy. High G turns aren’t required to do that and because they bleed of speed are counter productive.
(2) Yeah the point I was trying to make is you cannot make a blanket statement about missile defense like don’t bother to maneuver it doesn’t help kind of statements. Most everything is situational depending on the conditions you find yourself in.
(3) No but you made an assumption on what kind of turns I was talking about to help defeat it kinetically. Your assumption happened to be wrong.
1. Well because I sometimes do high G airspeed wasting turns against some threats depending on current factors. So does this guy.
2. You stated that I made a blanket statement about missile defense, and I respectfully disagree. I was only speaking of defending against the SA-10 and after putting it on your six and getting below 200’, as per the OP’s question. I also stated that you can break the lock early in the missile flight time and make it go ballistic. I also provided acmi footage to illustrate, and to show that it works. Your second point here was correct. (See 1.)
3. Can’t argue with you on this one. Sorry 'bout that. :oops:
If you have tacview, you can see here that I don’t do it the same vs. other threats, the SA-10 is just a different animal and I approach it differently.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d9wdz3m0jg22c6t/TAPE0056.acmi?dl=0
In the acmi footage I didn’t start recording until the SAM’s started launching, so it starts just as the first two SA-3’s are passing above me. The mission was to take out the SA-3’s and the SA-2’s. My first Magnum hits the search radar for the SA-3’s. It is at this point that the 3’s go silent for a minute or two and I start rolling the tape. I turn to attack the SA-2, and just about the time I’m setting up to release my second Magnum the 3 comes back online and all hell breaks loose. Later in the flight after helping my escort flight dispatch a remaining J-11 they were having trouble with, I get jumped by a Mig-29 and have to defend a single AA missile. You can see that I defend it differently as well.
How do you defend against the SA-10?
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Defeating kinematically SA-10 is not possible. It is so fast, and has so max high and not mentinong without labels (which is cheat) you have no idea where comes the missile and when you have to turn. After the first 8-10 the missile does not have smoke trail…
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I agree, molni. The situation the OP presents give less than 5% chance of survival, if you understand the capabilities of this missile. It is even less than that if you are unfamiliar with the SA-10.
BTW, I don’t use labels.
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Of somewhat side note, here is some interesting article (albeit a bit dated) about IADS and 4th generation aircrafts. http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-02.html
Also quite fresh article relating to S-300 in Syria http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/american-f-22s-b-2-bombers-vs-russias-s-300-syria-who-wins-13905
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1. Well because I sometimes do high G airspeed wasting turns against some threats depending on current factors. So does this guy.
Well that guy wasn’t defending against an SA-10 either.
It is completely dependent on what you are fighting against and it’s distance to you as to how you react.
2. You stated that I made a blanket statement about missile defense, and I respectfully disagree. I was only speaking of defending against the SA-10 and after putting it on your six and getting below 200’, as per the OP’s question. I also stated that you can break the lock early in the missile flight time and make it go ballistic. I also provided acmi footage to illustrate, and to show that it works. Your second point here was correct. (See 1.)
I am definitely not questioning the tactics as I agree if you are too close in when you get the 10 indication that getting super low and fast and hopefully finding some terrain to get behind is a very valid tactic. My point being is that isn’t going to be what you want to do every single time you get a 10 on the RTWS. If you are far enough away from the launch site that tactic turns into a waste of fuel.
How do you defend against the SA-10?
How I defend completely changes based on where the 10 shows up on the scope. If it surprises me and I am way too close then yes you don’t really have a choice other than get low and hope you have some terrain to put in between you and the radar. If I get a distant hit then I can go about beating any potential shots kinetically or if it is very far away just skirting the edge of the engagement zone.
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Defeating kinematically SA-10 is not possible. It is so fast, and has so max high and not mentinong without labels (which is cheat) you have no idea where comes the missile and when you have to turn. After the first 8-10 the missile does not have smoke trail…
Well not completely true but definitions have to be laid out. Talking about being well inside of the max range of the system yes it is not possible. It also isn’t possible to out turn the missile to cause it to miss. When I talk about it I am talking about long range shots where you can cause the missile to lose energy thus range to you. Obviously this only works in specific circumstances.
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Well not completely true but definitions have to be laid out. Talking about being well inside of the max range of the system yes it is not possible. It also isn’t possible to out turn the missile to cause it to miss. When I talk about it I am talking about long range shots where you can cause the missile to lose energy thus range to you. Obviously this only works in specific circumstances.
At med alt the terminal speed of SA-10 should be close to M3.0. In RL is close to M3.0.
5V55K + RCG = 55km, missile weigth is 1480 kg, max. burnout speed is above ~M6.0
5V55R + SAGG = 75 km, missile weigth is 1660 kg max. burnout speed is ~M7.0
48N6, 48N6E + SAGG = 150 km, missile weigth is 1800 kg max. burnout speed is a~M7.3
48N6D, 48N6E2 + SAGG = 200 km, missile weigth is 1835 kg max. burnout speed is ~M7.3.
48N6DM, 48N6E3 + SAGG = 250 km, missile weigth is 1835 kg max. burnout speed is ~M7.3.As you can see not the kinematics of the missile is the limitation. S-300 is literally a terminal phase guided ballistic missile. Counting with target paramters in the moment of launch system “throws” missile as close as possible to target’s calculated impact point and missile make the corrections.
If in Falcon at 40-50 km range is above M3.0 someting is not so well set in FM. Even if the missile comes only with M2.0 you have no idea where it is, so you cannot do well the evasion.
S-300/S-300V was a gamechanger in RL comparing to all previous SAMs. They made so outdated in every aspect the previous SAM generations that are no words on it.
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As you can see not the kinematics of the missile is the limitation. S-300 is literally a terminal phase guided ballistic missile. Counting with target paramters in the moment of launch system “throws” missile as close as possible to target’s calculated impact point and missile make the corrections.
Hence lead pursuit and this is the weak spot to all missile systems. Now granted in this case it is only a weak spot towards the outer edges of the engagement range but it is still there. By changing course by a good amount and sticking with it for a few seconds you are forcing a change on the missiles flight path. The missile has a limited amount of energy (large amount for the S-300 but still limited) and forcing the missile to change course multiple times can make the difference at range. Obviously close in this won’t help.
If in Falcon at 40-50 km range is above M3.0 someting is not so well set in FM. Even if the missile comes only with M2.0 you have no idea where it is, so you cannot do well the evasion.
Yet again I am NOT talking about out maneuvering the missile during terminal phase. I don’t think this can be done and if so it would be a goof of the sim not of the missile itself ala the adder dodge. If the missile has the legs to reach you even using kinetics against it then I believe low/fast/terrain is your only hope.
What I am referring to can only work at the outer edges of the SA-10 ranges if you are engaged. A smart operator who lets you get a decent amount into the NEZ before shooting nullifies what I am talking about and you are back to low/fast/terrain.
Based on the OP and assuming he was too close in to attempt any kinematic defeat the only things I would have changed from what he/she did is staying in the notch and getting down to about 75 feet not 200 feet.
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I’ll let molni take it from here!
:munch::uham:
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Hence lead pursuit and this is the weak spot to all missile systems.
SAMs generally use proportional guidance…
By changing course by a good amount and sticking with it for a few seconds you are forcing a change on the missiles flight path.
At long range this course change has almost on effect on kinematics. Even the impact point is changed from left to right side with 50-60 deg the missile can make the course change quite slowly.
The missile has a limited amount of energy (large amount for the S-300 but still limited) and forcing the missile to change course multiple times can make the difference at range.
Minimal. Try in Falcon and check the result via Tacview.
Obviously close in this won’t help.
At close the effect is harder. Olny problem the max G of the S-300’ s missile is somewhere 20-25G and terminal speed is M3.0+ with no smoke trail…
Quote Originally Posted by molnibalage View Post
If in Falcon at 40-50 km range is above M3.0 someting is not so well set in FM. Even if the missile comes only with M2.0 you have no idea where it is, so you cannot do well the evasion.What I am referring to can only work at the outer edges of the SA-10 ranges if you are engaged. A smart operator who lets you get a decent amount into the NEZ before shooting nullifies what I am talking about and you are back to low/fast/terrain.
As I have said even the original missile had longer kinematic range than 75 km. So even if you are edge of guidance limited range the kinematics of the missile has so big reserve, that your turns does not make any difference.
The only defense without EW is going out from eng. envelope. This can be done by fly under the horizon, behind a mountain or flying outside of eng. range.
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The SA-10 can only do 7 G’s so you can out-G them providing you have the airspeed by a 9 G turn towards them plus chaff/flares
If it’s on your RWR remotely within lethal, it’s already launched so go defensive. Emergency jettison if you see the missile.
I’ve heard that real pilots always set CAT1 for combat situations so there’s one less thing they have to do in an emergency jettison, same way you turn on the speed brake before you land
The real key to defending against SA-10s or Patriots is not to fly suicidal AI packages, especially the kind they make in the Israeli campaign with no ARMs
I can imagine in real life the AWACS would also be more helpful, more than the unreliable enemy launch activity at bullseye X, Y miles -
The SA-10 can only do 7 G’s so you can out-G them providing you have the airspeed by a 9 G turn towards them plus chaff/flares
I love to see a little humor in the world
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kinetically dodging sa10 is simply not possible in any real circumstance
instead, do a 2g turn until you are behind a hill
works 100% of the time i hear
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First thing I wanna do is say that whoever said fire 2 HARMS at the SA-10 and beat it, why waste one warhead that only takes 1 to kill. Second, okay so what if one had the Shrike and not the HARM how in the hell could you close on an SA-10 without getting killed ?? or a Patriot for that matter ?? I’ve always wanted to know how I could make it happen. Because if I could I’d remove the HARM and just use the Shrike in single player because Strong DPRK AFAIK is the only theater that has SA-10. Unless one has the AGM-45 available in TE ??
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well, Ive done it. Killed an SA-10 with a Shrike. Have to, in the FO campaigns, as they are allergic to the Rod from God.
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Still how did you close in distance to 15 miles to put the missile in range, did you fly low ??
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@Raider254:
Strong DPRK AFAIK is the only theater that has SA-10.
KTO Tiger Spirit - Chinese have SA-10
ITO Solid Truss - Egypt have SA-10 and Patriots.Pretty sure you can find the SA-10 in FO Battle for Balkans theater as well along w/ SA-N-6 on ships.
Low level ingress below 200ft with terrain masking if possible, is the only way to get close to SA-10 and/or Patriot. Just make sure you kill it on the first pass.
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Ha. 15 miles? Shrikes have a nasty habit of missing… moreso when fired that far away. Seven miles is a much better range to fire them from.
Low level ingress, using direct terrain masking to hide your approach.
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I would like to use the Shrike more often but BMS does not have it in the loadout screen. I posted a thread as to how I could get it put in there using LOD Editor.
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Shrike is a feature in Battle for Balkans I believe.