Maverick question
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There is no debate here, and repeating the same thing and quoting the same sentences from the 3-4 again and again will not change anything, I suggest to re-read my post above if you really feel like you need to
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Thereâs certainly a difference of opinion, I can see why. just my 2c, It doesnât feel intuitive at all tbh. Being new to falcon and having read through the paragraphs on the Mav operation I would have had to read the sections a few times to eventually fathom that I needed to press DGFT mode/cancel especially since its under a mode section that does not even apply to what I was in namely VIS. I was in PRE in fact. At least this works now, then again so does PWR the Mav on and off.
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It doesnât strictly need to be DGFT/MRM, any master mode change will do. The hands on overrides simply are the most convenient. Whether or not thereâs a way to reset the sensor cueing chain after slewing Maverick back to pre-designate PRE/VIS/BORE without MM change is academic in BMS, you canât.
Settling the bet regarding the real airplane would probably require sitting in the real thing and trying it at this point. If I was the OFP programmer I would have made some way to return to pre-designate via TMS say with the pre-designating sensor SOI. But like I-HAWK says âwould be niceâ isnât âthe way it is.â The manual also says that thereâs no such thing as HUD SOI in BORE mode and yet in BMS there is. Itâs a direct contradiction. Whoâs right? Did the software change? Itâs hard to say.
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Firstly, donât mix up how LMAV works with how IMAV worksâŚ
âŚsecondly, the MAV itself (any MAV) does not make a âdesignationâ in that what the missile sees is not fed back to the aircraft and retained - the MAV âlocks onâ. Once you break that lock the missile should return to slave to what/wherever your SOI is pointed (in the case of IMAV). Depending on how well you did your boresight (and in RL I strongly think you have to boresight each weapon as they come under pickle) you may or may not be close to your intended target. If you are using a TGP, you need to learn to transition from the TGP as your SOI to the weapon as your SOI and operate that way during the attack; âfunnel inâ.
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By designate I mean when the LOS of the Maverick is pointed via another sensor such as FCR in PRE or TDC in VIS, slaved and the weapon hasnât been slewed directly yet. If you break track with Maverick it doesnât return to the designating sensor (e.g. FCR) directed LOS, not in BMS and likely not R/W either. It would be annoying if you accidentally started tracking an object right next to your intended target and breaking lock would send the Maverick all the way back to the sensor LOS no matter how far that is. Maybe it would resume slaved LOS if you set SOI away from WPN, that would be workable.
Thatâs really what surprises Blu and myself that there isnât a return-to-slave mechanic aside from cycling master mode and starting all over. Breaking Maverick slave to autonomous operation is a one way ticket.
Iâm confused by what you mean âboresight each weapon as they come under the pickle.â Boresighting is done well before the attack run. When the weapon is tracking the same item as something else (FCR, TGP) thatâs when the calibration is saved. When it comes time to use the thing thatâs all done. I also donât understand transitioning from TGP SOI to WPN SOI. During a TGP-EO attack the WPN page is never SOI.
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Again, donât mix your terminology - what you mean is âslavedâ, not designation/designated. You can screw up here in a few ways - mistaking where your SOI is, having a poor boresight, etc. And again, I strongly think that you have to boresige each missile in turn - so if you boresight #1, fire, and then step to the next and wake it up you may find you need to boresight that one before it slaves properly/effectively; this is what I mean by âboresight as each comes under pickleâ.
Also know and be certain of which lock you are breaking - if your SOI is the TGP and you break, you have undesignated. If you break missile lock (missile as SOI) and the missile is not slaved, Iâm pretty sure you can command it back to slave via either CAGE/UNCAGE or CURSOR ENABLE - youâll have to cross-check me in the manual on that one. But you need to insure the TGP is SOI first.
As for âtransitioningâ - the TGP is effective at picking out targets at much longer ranges than the MAV. So you can use the TGP to get you âfunneledâ into the target area, but in the endgame and prior to launch you must switch your SOI to MAV and lock the weapon - just because the MAV is slaved onto target doesnât mean itâs locked on targetâŚin point of fact, it shouldnât be - it should just be staring in the general vicinity. You have to âtransitionâ your SOI to MAV, lock the target, verify launch parameters, then fire a valid shotâŚone weapon. Then egress and set up for re-attack if/as required.
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Neither of those hotas commands will do that. Uncage will command it to uncage the gyro in the seeker, which should have happened already, and cursor enable will cycle through the submodes VIS, PRE and BORE.
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Hi,
Once you break that lock the missile should return to slave to what/wherever your SOI is pointed (in the case of IMAV). Depending on how well you did your boresight (and in RL I strongly think you have to boresight each weapon as they come under pickle) you may or may not be close to your intended target. If you are using a TGP, you need to learn to transition from the TGP as your SOI to the weapon as your SOI and operate that way during the attack; âfunnel inâ.
All wrong⌠the correct behavior is as in BMS.
And yes, Boresighting is per station and NOT per missile⌠that also makes sense from an engineering POV because the actual distortion comes from the rack angle.
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Again, donât mix your terminology what you mean is âslavedâ, not designation/designated.
I mean both. The Maverickâs LOS is designated in direction by virtue of being slaved to some sort of sensor LOS. But everything considered slaved is a better word.
And again, I strongly think that you have to boresige each missile in turn - so if you boresight #1, fire, and then step to the next and wake it up you may find you need to boresight that one before it slaves properly/effectively; this is what I mean by âboresight as each comes under pickleâ.
You do have to calibrate the boresight per individual station but you donât have to do it as they are fired. You donât have to shoot the missile off station 3 prior to calibrating boresight on station 9. You can do it âas you goâ but it can (and should) be entirely done for all stations before any attack. In the case of LAU-88, all missiles on a station share a calibration value. It shouldnât be required to change calibration for missiles on the same LAU-88 (and in BMS you never do) but if one rail was bent then youâd have to alter that stationâs calibration value as you got to that missile I guess.
Also know and be certain of which lock you are breaking - if your SOI is the TGP and you break, you have undesignated. If you break missile lock (missile as SOI) and the missile is not slaved, Iâm pretty sure you can command it back to slave via either CAGE/UNCAGE or CURSOR ENABLE - youâll have to cross-check me in the manual on that one. But you need to insure the TGP is SOI first.
In PRE using TGP (but avoiding MBC usage) the Maverick is always slaved to TGP LOS no matter if INR or AREA or none. Thereâs no way to TGP break track enough to unslave the Maverick. On the other hand if you break slave by making the Maverick autonomous then there is no way to resume the slaved situation without resetting the whole mess and trying again. For example in VIS once you put the box down on the ground thereâs no way to move it or pick it back up or return the Maverick LOS to that box after slewing.
As for âtransitioningâ - the TGP is effective at picking out targets at much longer ranges than the MAV. So you can use the TGP to get you âfunneledâ into the target area, but in the endgame and prior to launch you must switch your SOI to MAV and lock the weapon - just because the MAV is slaved onto target doesnât mean itâs locked on targetâŚin point of fact, it shouldnât be - it should just be staring in the general vicinity. You have to âtransitionâ your SOI to MAV, lock the target, verify launch parameters, then fire a valid shotâŚone weapon. Then egress and set up for re-attack if/as required.
There is no requirement when using the MBC function. Maverick is fired after being commanded track and the WPN page is never SOI at any point. That is the preferred method. You can of course do it the more manual way of slewing SPI in PRE and switching SOI and slewing for track. This avoids using the MBC function by never commanding point track in TGP. Youâre going to have to give the âone missile per passâ lecture a rest. It might be advisable in most situations but the F-16 avionics are absolutely built for the multi-missile attack capability.
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Multi makes sense for LMAVâŚmaybe. Not even close for IR. If the aircraft software does that, thatâs fineâŚbut Iâd wager that in RL pilots donât use the weapon that way. Ever. Unless you can show meâŚ
âDesignatedâ ans âslavedâ are not the same thing, and I think thatâs where a great deal of the confusion is coming from. But I think this is clear now. But in any case, if you havenât actually locked the MAV I would fully expect you to miss the target.
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TGP operations are designed to work that way, Stevie. You dont lock the Mav, you dont switch SOI - but the mav does get locked, by the MBC. One of the features I am very happy to see modeled.
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That must be one of the things the guys meant when they told me the G missile had/has a âbetterâ seeker than the FâŚI have a lot of experience with the F missile, and the LMAV for that matter. But from what I read on the web the two are just optimized for different target sets and appear to be the same other than that. I also know the USAF has done a better job of integrating the G into the sensor suiteâŚwhich is another reason I would use it as I describe.
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I suspect finding pilots using more than one maverick per pass is also limited by the availability of valid targets, too. In training you want to maximise the training attempts, so you are not going to ripple active mavericks for the sake of doing it. In a full up shooting war where you have your pick of valid targets though, this would be a little different. Getting those valid targets could be more of an issue. In Vipers in the Storm, they brought back their mavs fairly often, IIRC.
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Target set, cost of the weapon, availability of the weaponâŚother RW effects that arenât modeled in BMS.
âŚafter looking at some of the BMS MAV tutorials, yeahâŚIâm convinced the G missile is more capable than the F. AND - ârippleâ means something different to me in my Navy worldâŚI ârippleâ bombs and/or rockets - QTY/MULT/INT - and use that term exclusively to describe that; one pickle depression/multiple weapons away. Thatâs not what people are doing with MAV in this caseâŚtheyâre doing multi picklesâŚwhich isnât the same thing. Mea CulpaâŚIâll get this lingo straight one day. MaybeâŚ
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There is some debate over thatâŚ
There is no debate here, and repeating the same thing and quoting the same sentences from the 3-4 again and again will not change anything, I suggest to re-read my post above if you really feel like you need to
Those posts being here:
Well⌠I sure hope that you:
1. Realize that it would be EXTREMELY odd for me to just pop such behavior out of my mind.The implication of course being that you did not make this up, and that you are not the firsthand source for the information. The only issue there is the flack that Dan Hampton gets over the stuff in Viper Pilot, specifically the things he says you can do in an F-16, which no manual supports.
Hi,
You need to RTFM the Maverick section of the BMS 3-4. Once a Mav is slewed, it becomes ground stabilized and works on its own, in order to âResetâ it you can change Master mode to DGFT/MRM-Override and cancel.
See, the manual agrees that this will work. By switching master modes, you move the SOI away from the WPN page, and thus command a return to slaved condition. There is no debate about this - it will work.
Iâm fairly certain that it is correct behavior, EVEN if the real manuals may suggest otherwiseâŚ
Well. As mentioned above, it is correct behavior, in that it will work. Its likely even operational practice, because switching to DGFT and back is quick and easy. That switching mastermodes is the only way to do that⌠the manual does not suggest otherwise, it flat out states otherwise. But it does not state that switching mastermodes will not work - because it will.
2.8.12.1.11.8 In non-TGP operations, the SOI moves to the WPN page (if displayed) upon the target designation.
Well, everyone agrees about this part also.
If the SOI is on the FCR page with either FTT or GMTT selected, then the SOI moves to the WPN page upon the target designation after the radar has acquired track.
This part is irrelevant to BMS, because FTT/GMTT acquire track instantly in BMS, rather than taking 5 to 10 seconds to get a stable track. So, its basically just the same as the last sentence, until/unless the GM/GMT modes get an upgrade in a future BMS version.
If the SOI changes from WPN to another sensor while the selected Maverick is in slew mode, then the Maverick is commanded into SLAVE (BORE) mode.
This is the part that is apparently disputed. If you, while in PRE with a mav tracking and a valid GMTT, position the DMS down, the SOI will switch to the FCR. According to the manual, the mav will return to slave at that point (or bore depending on mode). According to an unnamed source, the mav will remain in slew mode at that point, unless and until a mastermode change is commanded.
So I suppose there is some disagreement there. The manual in question may not relate to the same aircraft as the source is familiar with. The manual may be wrong. The source may be wrong. I think those three possibilities, are the only three?
Not knowing the source, I cannot know its accuracy. This is the wikipedia problem! The manual is certainly capable of mistakes, and given the wide range of F-16s and F-16 variations, its entirely possible that both the source and the manual are correct, depending on which F-16 you are discussing.
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âThe info we got was in regards with the TGM-65 maverick training missile. The TGM-65 provides the same cockpit control response as the operational AGM-65 missile except it does not launch.
Cycling out of AG mode (this can be accomplished by momentarily selecting DGFT or MSL OVRD )reactivates the weapon video for reattack.
This was the information we got. Unless someone can provide additional ,reliable information ,the code will remain as it is. -
On one hand itâs pretty tragic to base anything AGM off that TGM note. The reason for cycling mode to restore video is the training missiles blank the video on simulated launch to simulate launch. It has nothing to do with AGM operations.
On the other hand I have no basis for saying anything about the current situation where breaking slave is a one-way ticket requiring some sort of hard reset of the process to resume the slaved state. One might take the subtle note that to target reject in EO VIS you HUD SOI and TMS down. In BMS itâs not possible to HUD SOI and TMS like this. The question is âwtf is target rejectâ and what does it do.
There are some clear corrections to make though:
1. MBC should kick WPN into EXP during the handoff process.
2. EO-VIS box should be able to be slewed via cursor like DTOS prior to designation.
3. Maverick uncaging is automatic after time out. Uncage button is only used to uncage earlier than the 3 minutes.
4. EO-VIS should allow MBC function (devs are aware).
5. RP 2 launches require holding WPN REL for ~2 sec.
6. Selecting OSB 8 (RP #) selects the data entry page instead of a rotary between 1 and 2. (maybe the engineers wised up that the only valid numbers were 1 and 2)EO-BORE SOI is hard to interpret. The current BMS forced HUD SOI is weird. It should be possible to have FCR or TGP or WPN SOI in EO-BORE. Considering the inability to slew the TDC in EO-VIS and the inability to relocate SOI in EO-BORE they are almost the same mode functionally.
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Tragic? You must be kidding. The closest we could get to real life AGM-65 employment was with the TGM-65.
BMS handles AGM-65 employment pretty good actually (launch⌠no WPN reactivation needed).
FYI,the question asked was :âHow can I reset or remove the AGM-65 LOS circle or circles if no missile is launched.
Answer : âDGFT-MSL OVRD and back to AGâ.
Of course we can re-ask the question and get more detail. As I said, the code will not change unless anyone (including us) has reliable info.
As for target reject. Its pretty simple. TMS down. And why make the HUD SOI in E-O VIS for target rejection? The SOI moves to the WPN for a reason.
As for the list of corrections, it is known and we have added more. -
+1, as Leech has it figuredâŚall sounds logical to me.
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Id say it sounds like we are not disagreeing with the manual then. The manual comments on the differences between the TGM-65 and the AGM-65. One of those being, to reactivate the video as discussed above. It also describes how to reset a nontracking (slew mode) maverick back to slave/bore condition, by moving the SOI away from the WPN page. As this happens when you change mastermodes, it would seem that the instructions match up with how it works.
NB: I goofed in my last post with the word âtrackingâ. It should have been a Mav in slew mode, rather than a mav in track mode.
Edit: seeing as we are discussing the differences here⌠what is the chances that a future version could have TGM-65s that work correctly avionics wise?