Flares not working in BMS?

[Tom Catz]

Hello,
I have following problem- I have tested a Lot of tactics against enemy heaters. But whatever I did. The flares are simply not working.

First Generation of heaters
The heaters having a simple cooling Head without any complicated Systems. So the missile is tracking the hot Spot which is Inside the seeking area. 1st generation heaters should be easy to defeat with flares course they will going to the hottest Spot.
Exambles Aim 9 P, AA 2

Second generation heaters have some Technical solutions against decoys. If the target is flaring, the seeking missile will get a trigger. The missile will a neutral heading between two hot Spots and is waiting for the burnout of a possible flare so that the left Spot should be the aircraft. And the seeking Head is using blenders to Isolate the target. So the Head zooming into a small area. And finaly after the seeking missile is disturbed by flares a trigger is Turning into a intercept heading forward of the target in in order to lock the clean target once again. To defeat these Kind of heaters The aircraft have to use bursts of flares because two hot Spots arent enough.
Exambles are R60 and Aim 9 L

The newest heaters are using different methodes. They Sometimes called digitaled heaters. The seeker is searching optically, in UV and infrared Bandwith. It is impossible to defeat a modern heat seeking digital missile with flares. The target isnt able to use different Types of flares and break the optical sight line while switching to another course.
Exambles are Aim 9 X and IrisT.

However- in BMS all heater missiles do ignoring flares completely. I made hundreds of Tests with flares against AA 2, R24 T, R27t, R 60 and Aim9 P and M. Never, not a single flare or a burst or different Type of sequences had any effect against heaters.

So I hope that the BMS Team can fix it. But I think that many different testers should Test and confirm that problem before. That is the reason for this Thread. So please guys- share your experiences with flares against heaters.
Cheers
Tom

[Amraam]

Nope it work well, but old missile just need one flare to get 80% of chance to be defeated, the missile up to the AIM-9M need so much flare in short sequence that is nearly impossible to get defeated with the amount of flare in the F-16.

[Dee-Jay]

TomCatz, what are the sequence you are using for each tests? … Because releasing one falre and watching what happens is just irrelevant. Number of flares and sequence setting is paramount.

[Tom Catz]

For all models/ Types of missiles I tested following programms-

1: every second one flare.
Sequence started when heater was launched.

2. Tree flares in one second. 5 sequences, 1 second between every sequence.
Started when missile launched At target.

3. Five flares in two seconds. 5 sequences with one second delay.

4. All flares, ca. 4 per second, when enemy heater was launched and on collision course.

Finaly I dropped flares manuelly. 3 flares as Group. 3 x 6 flares. 2 x 5 flares and 5x 3 flares.
Whatever I did, the started heater was able to hit the target directly. Alltimes the target was in a 2-3 g turn. No offensive breaks.
Cheers
Tom

[molnibalage]

@Tom:

Hello,
I have following problem- I have tested a Lot of tactics against enemy heaters. But whatever I did. The flares are simply not working.

First Generation of heaters
The heaters having a simple cooling Head without any complicated Systems. So the missile is tracking the hot Spot which is Inside the seeking area. 1st generation heaters should be easy to defeat with flares course they will going to the hottest Spot.
Exambles Aim 9 P, AA 2

Second generation heaters have some Technical solutions against decoys. If the target is flaring, the seeking missile will get a trigger. The missile will a neutral heading between two hot Spots and is waiting for the burnout of a possible flare so that the left Spot should be the aircraft. And the seeking Head is using blenders to Isolate the target. So the Head zooming into a small area. And finaly after the seeking missile is disturbed by flares a trigger is Turning into a intercept heading forward of the target in in order to lock the clean target once again. To defeat these Kind of heaters The aircraft have to use bursts of flares because two hot Spots Arena enough.
Exambles are R60 and Aim 9 L

The newest heaters are using different methodes. They Sometimes called digitaled heaters. The seeker is searching optically, in UV and infrared Bandwith. It is impossible to defeat a modern heat seeking digital missile with flares. The target isnt able to use different Types of flares and break the optical sight line while switching to another course.
Exambles are Aim 9 X and IrisT.

However- in BMS all heater missiles do ignoring flares completely. I made hundreds of Tests with flares against AA 2, R24 T, R27t, R 60 and Aim9 P and M. Never, not a single flare or a burst or different Type of sequences had any effect against heaters.

So I hope that the BMS Team can fix it. But I think that many different testers should Test and confirm that problem before. That is the reason for this Thread. So please guys- share your experiences with flares against heaters.
Cheers
Tom

I explained tons of times. They are working but modeling values in DB are bad joke from my aspect. Except very old AAMs and some '70s SAMs heaters are literally immune to flares.
With 85-90% RPM.

I have not checked BMS 4.33. R-60, AIM-9P/H/J ,etc are not immune, but R-73, AIM-9M, AIM-9X and more advanced AAMs are technically immune to flares in Falcon, they always were…

Tom, I can share my table what I set in my MOD and what are in original database.

[molnibalage]

@Amraam:

Nope it work well, but old missile just need one flare to get 80% of chance to be defeated, the missile up to the AIM-9M need so much flare in short sequence that is nearly impossible to get defeated with the amount of flare in the F-16.

Only problem in RL MiG-25 and other AC do defeated AIM-9M when target used afterburner and were launched the AIM-9M on tail aspect. The IRCCM capabilites of AAM up to eraly '90s stuff are way, way over modeled in Falcon universe.

[haukka81]

@molnibalage:

Only problem in RL MiG-25 and other AC do defeated AIM-9M when target used afterburner and were launched the AIM-9M on tail aspect. The IRCCM capabilites of AAM up to eraly '90s stuff are way, way over modeled in Falcon universe.

True

AIM-9M missed in iraq , that document is in YouTube btw…

And there is real pilot from F-15 telling how his AIM-9s missed MIG-25 from REAR

[molnibalage]

@haukka81:

True

AIM-9M missed in iraq , that document is in YouTube btw…

And there is real pilot from F-15 telling how his AIM-9s missed MIG-25 from REAR

+afterburner…

[Dee-Jay]

Keep also in mind when talking about such “rather unique” example, that somtimes, missile/seeker … can simply fail. I.E: GBU12/24 missing their targets for unknown reasons are not very rare IRL …

[molnibalage]

@Dee-Jay:

Keep also in mind when talking about such “rather unique” example, that somtimes, missile/seeker … can simply fail. I.E: GBU12/24 missing their targets for unknown reasons are not very rare IRL …

I’m aware this.

[Ahmed]

Also, the timing of flare release is important. If you drop 100 flares when the missile is either too far or too close it wont get affected at all.

[Amraam]

Yes, and in Falcon you have a certain range (between two specific values) when the missile will be more impacted.

[molnibalage]

@Amraam:

Yes, and in Falcon you have a certain range (between two specific values) when the missile will be more impacted.

I know, RP5’s legacy is still living. SARH and ARH also had range modifiers but because in BMS ARH immune to flare ARH range modifier does not count anymore.

[Dee-Jay]

“Normal”. BMS do not simulate the adaptive chaff cutting like it does exist on "some a/c). Classic chaffs do simply not work on modern ARH and are only made to “jam” the launch platforms.

[l3crusader]

@molnibalage:

I know, RP5’s legacy is still living. SARH and ARH also had range modifiers but because in BMS ARH immune to flare ARH range modifier does not count anymore.

ARH is not immune to chaff. However, it will scan and reacquire quickly.

Molni, test the following, in aim120.dat, edit the line BeamScanRatioForSearch 2 to BeamScanRatioForSearch 0.

Then get fired at by a 120B (standard ARH in dogfight module, FYI), and once the missile is active, fire the following sequence of chaff : 1 burst, 30+ chaff in the burst, 0.1s between chaffs. The missile will stop tracking and never reacquire.

[molnibalage]

@l3crusader:

ARH is not immune to chaff. However, it will scan and reacquire quickly.

Molni, test the following, in aim120.dat, edit the line BeamScanRatioForSearch 2 to BeamScanRatioForSearch 0.

Then get fired at by a 120B (standard ARH in dogfight module, FYI), and once the missile is active, fire the following sequence of chaff : 1 burst, 30+ chaff in the burst, 0.1s between chaffs. The missile will stop tracking and never reacquire.

I’m not familiar with many dat file data lines. I changed only the chaff chance value in DB and did not had any effect. Do the SARH missiles have the same lines?

[molnibalage]

@Dee-Jay:

“Normal”. BMS do not simulate the adaptive chaff cutting like it does exist on M2000. Classic chaffs do simply not work on modern ARH and are only made to “jam” the launch platforms.

How can it be, that a small ARH onboard radar is immune to chaff while you saying aircraft more powerful and complex radar is not…? Or I misunderstand something?

[Dee-Jay]

@molnibalage:

How can it be, that a small ARH onboard radar is immune to chaff while you saying aircraft more powerful and complex radar is not…? Or I misunderstand something?

Tell me how (simply) a chaff is working, and maybe I can give you the point you are missing.

[Amraam]

Because the missile scan closer and have a inertial track. Then you can break the lock for a small period of time, but as soon the sequence is finished, the missile is so close and know where you are that it will find you immediately.
Chaff is not use for the missile but for the airborn radar.

[l3crusader]

@molnibalage:

I’m not familiar with many dat file data lines. I changed only the chaff chance value in DB and did not had any effect. Do the SARH missiles have the same lines?

Only useful for ARH.