High altitude radar scan
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Hi Everyone,
I don’t know if this has been discussed before, but couldn’t find anything when I searched. I’m having some issues with my radar as soon as I fly above 30k ft. I’m rarely able to pick up targets when I climb above 30k ft or when bandits climb to this altitude. I had this in previous versions as well (OF and 4.32). Is there a setting or technique to pick up targets at this altitude? When I fly at 25k ft I have no trouble with the radar at all. Just wondering if there is a setting or technique that I am missing.
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I assume you are familiar with antenna elevation ?
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Yes, I am. Tried various things. Narrowing my scan etc. But still notice that I have more difficulty tracking a target above 30k ft than below. It almost seems like there’s something that makes the radar far less efficient above 30k ft… so was wondering if I did something wrong or am missing something.
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The radar finds it more difficult to pick up and track targets that are higher than your own aircraft in my experience.
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Ok, haven’t really noticed that in bvr fights. I usually fly at 25k ft for bvr intercepts, because going higher I usually lose my radar tracks as mentioned above. When I fly at 25k, the ai bandits usually fly around 26 to 28k and have no problem tracking them and I get a good pk against them. But I read others here who go as high as possible to give the amraam as much kinetic help as possible. When I do that, I mostly lose track until they’re very close like 10 to 15Nm… In some fights bandits try to climb to 40k ft and do notice that I’m having a harder time keeping track of them. But when I stay at 25k ft and tilt my antenna up, I still usually manage to bug them after a bit of searching. It’s mostly when I climb to 30+k ft myself that I lose the radar tracks and only see the ecm chevrons.
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Yep, for air to air I climb to 40K, minimum at 35K and I can find it easily on the radar. I just switched in TWS as soon I have it in RWS to use the COAST function of the TWS and avoid loosing track for missile guidance.
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Ok, haven’t really noticed that in bvr fights. I usually fly at 25k ft for bvr intercepts, because going higher I usually lose my radar tracks as mentioned above. When I fly at 25k, the ai bandits usually fly around 26 to 28k and have no problem tracking them and I get a good pk against them. But I read others here who go as high as possible to give the amraam as much kinetic help as possible. When I do that, I mostly lose track until they’re very close like 10 to 15Nm… In some fights bandits try to climb to 40k ft and do notice that I’m having a harder time keeping track of them. But when I stay at 25k ft and tilt my antenna up, I still usually manage to bug them after a bit of searching. It’s mostly when I climb to 30+k ft myself that I lose the radar tracks and only see the ecm chevrons.
The fact that you are getting contacts at all indicates your plane’s systems are working and the problem is almost certainly “operator error”. Based on your questions posted, you appear to have two issues: “picking up targets” and “tracking targets”. When first “picking up targets” (looking for and finding them?), recommend RWS mode. Although you mentioned knowledge of antenna tilt, you didn’t mention if you know how to interpret and use the cone hi/lo altitude indicator on the B scope’s cursor. If not, read up on the subject in the docs because it almost certainly means you aren’t aiming the search cone in the direction of the bogeys/bandits. In general, if you “know” that a bogey is on a certain azimuth and still can’t find it on the radar, you probably need to swivel the antenna to the upper or lower gimbal limits or better yet, switch to one of the visual radar modes instead (e.g., eyeballs plus bore, VS, slew, HMCS, etc). Enhanced padlock comes in real handy when using visual radar modes.
As for “tracking the targets”, if you see the tracks fading from your scope, adjust the antenna tilt up or down to keep them in the search cone. The direction of your antenna tilt change is also an indication of bogey’s altitude change.** To automatically “track a target”, simply put the radar in single target track (STT) mode while in RWS or TWS (long press TMS up). While in TWS, use TMS right to quickly cycle to other target tracks.
Practice radar ops in TE, DF, and Instant Action by browsing the bogeys with external views (6 key) to determine their location if you can’t pick them up. Make mental notes of bogey tendencies based on RWR indicators (e.g. 25s tend to be high while 21s tend to be lower, etc). Freeze the sim as needed while you tinker with your plane’s radar.
F1
** Learn from the AI. The easiest way to get out of or stay out of an enemy search radar cone is to quickly change altitude or fly very hi or low!
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Thanks for the extensive explanation! I do consider operator error as a real possibility. That’s why I asked if I was missing something. I do know about the cone and how to aim it. I have no problem finding targets when I fly at 25k ft or below at any other altitude. Only when I fly above 30k ft I noticed this issue. I also tried the 6 key in TE’s to see if I was scanning the right part of the sky or if they perhaps were above or below my scan. But they weren’t. so I was wondering if there was another setting that I perhaps don’t know about. I did read the manual, but didn’t find anything regarding this issue. However it is possible that I missed something of course.
I practice quite a lot of TE’s against most types of airplanes. Against Migs, Flankers, but also against F-15/16/18 etc. And normally I have no problem tracking them. Not when they stay at altitude, not when they dive down for the deck. Sometimes I see bandits go for 40+k ft and then every now and then I do lose them briefly, but usually am able to pick them up again by searching again and adjusting the antenna etc. But that’s when I stay around 25k ft. If I myself climb to 30+k ft for some reason it’s much harder to track targets. and it’s possibly user error or perhaps it’s my system, since others don’t seem to have the problem. I also asked a local friend of mine and he never noticed it either, so I also consider the possibilty that it’s just my system.
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Thanks for the extensive explanation! I do consider operator error as a real possibility. That’s why I asked if I was missing something. I do know about the cone and how to aim it. I have no problem finding targets when I fly at 25k ft or below at any other altitude. Only when I fly above 30k ft I noticed this issue. I also tried the 6 key in TE’s to see if I was scanning the right part of the sky or if they perhaps were above or below my scan. But they weren’t. so I was wondering if there was another setting that I perhaps don’t know about. I did read the manual, but didn’t find anything regarding this issue. However it is possible that I missed something of course.
I practice quite a lot of TE’s against most types of airplanes. Against Migs, Flankers, but also against F-15/16/18 etc. And normally I have no problem tracking them. Not when they stay at altitude, not when they dive down for the deck. Sometimes I see bandits go for 40+k ft and then every now and then I do lose them briefly, but usually am able to pick them up again by searching again and adjusting the antenna etc. But that’s when I stay around 25k ft. If I myself climb to 30+k ft for some reason it’s much harder to track targets. and it’s possibly user error or perhaps it’s my system, since others don’t seem to have the problem. I also asked a local friend of mine and he never noticed it either, so I also consider the possibilty that it’s just my system.
Well…several possible explanations come to mind…
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confirm you don’t see “NO RAD” on the top of the HUD when having trouble finding them
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While you are flying at 30K ft, you still lose track even with an STT bug (hard lock) on a bogey? If not STT, bogey tracks are fading even if you’ve confirmed they are still in the radar cone?
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confirm if bogeys are “beaming” you when their tracks fade.
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Your “system” is actually working normally as modeled because I sometimes have trouble finding and tracking bogeys/bandits too but always managed to reacquire them and never gave the matter much thought (that something was broken).
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Losing tracks while at 30K feet may actually be a bug and many of the rest of us never thought of this issue as a bug. I’ll have to wait until later today to check this on my own system…
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My radar is on, so not the “NO RAD”.
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STT does seem to do a bit better keeping track of a target once I found it, but the issue is more at longer ranges picking up the target at high altitude in the first place. So bugging at all is an issue.
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beaming or bandits turning tail etc is not the issue. Then I indeed expect the radar to lose track and having to search again. At other altitudes (25k ft and below) I have no issues reacquiring a target. It’s just that at 30k+ ft it seems harder to find targets than at lower altitudes.
I’ll see if I have time to fly tonight and do some more testing. Maybe then I can also be a bit more specific in what I do and what the bandits do. Best would be to tape it, but fraps doesn’t really run well on my machine. So best I can do is an acmi tape and don’t know if that’s very useful.
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Dee Jay posted a document recently in another thread about electronic warfare fundamentals. You may find it an interersting read…as it relates to radar. I don’t know how BMS has coded the radar settings though, so I couldn’t tell you if it all works true to life, but there is a bit of an issue with radar looking through different things and can “miss” things in another altitude from the radar system. Again, I don’t know how BMS code is written or if they implement this point. But we’re all assuming you know the target wont show on your screen if the altitude of your target isn’t whats shown in the range beside or below the cursor for the radars altitude search range at that point in space.
Now when you say longer ranges, how far are you talking? Beyond 40nm? -
Thanks, that sounds interesting. I’ll have a look for that article.
I did a test flight tonight. 4 basic 2v2 bvr setups against Mig29S starting around 80 miles apart. I think I have a case of taking the car to the garage to have it fixed and when getting there all problems are gone… :oops:
I had no problems tonight. 2 setups at 35k and 2 at 30k and picked them up on radar between 40 and 50 miles each time. And I was able to track them all the time until I could get an amraam shot off. -
It’s strange to get inferior look up performance than look down. It should be the other way around.
In all CRM modes the displayed objects are logical abstractions from the analog radar data that the operator never sees. But the white bits (contact) are less abstracted than the yellow bits (tracks) so RWS is best for initial detection. The smaller the volume scanned about the target the less time elapses between detection entries passing the threshold to display a contact either quickly or at all.
ACMI would at least describe range, speed, heights, and aircraft types.
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Thanks, that sounds interesting. I’ll have a look for that article.
I did a test flight tonight. 4 basic 2v2 bvr setups against Mig29S starting around 80 miles apart. I think I have a case of taking the car to the garage to have it fixed and when getting there all problems are gone… :oops:
I had no problems tonight. 2 setups at 35k and 2 at 30k and picked them up on radar between 40 and 50 miles each time. And I was able to track them all the time until I could get an amraam shot off.If it happens again, take screen shots of both the cockpit front panel including HUD and external view of bogey (with info bar showing) then post them here.
Got a mystery to to solve.
f1
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Interesting as the only issue I have is getting radar contacts on low flying helos. They never show up.
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Weather conditions can affect the behavior of radar waves and therefore the ability of the detection devices. Moisture causes a reduction in the “strength” of electromagnetic waves, thereby limiting the scope thereof. On the contrary, at low altitudes, you can produce a rebound effect that increases the detection distance.
Furthermore, if an aircraft is located on the opposite side of the layer relative to trying to detect radar it can not be detected until the distance is shortened sufficiently.
All these phenomena (in relation to the sound) are well known for sonar operators (“Dangerous Waters”, of course) and are commonly used in combat techniques.
Is it possible that with the new version 4.33 of Falcon BMS maps and implementing “FMAP” developers have included these phenomena in the simulator? -
If it happens again, take screen shots of both the cockpit front panel including HUD and external view of bogey (with info bar showing) then post them here.
Got a mystery to to solve.
f1
I’ll do that. I’ll also try some bvr setups against different fighters and see what happens.
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Interesting as the only issue I have is getting radar contacts on low flying helos. They never show up.
Yes, helo’s can be difficult to detect as well, but I generally don’t have many issues picking them up on radar. With helo’s on the deck I sometimes think it’s actually a bit too easy to detect and shoot them. I would expect more difficulty tracking helo’s due to ground clutter etc. I once read a story on another forum posted by an F-18 pilot that at Topgun one of the missions is for fighters to go against low flying Helo’s and apparantly that’s one of the most difficult and dangerous missions. Dangerous due to the close proximity to the ground. And difficult because it’s apparantly a real pain for F-18’s to detect low flying helo’s with radar and employ weapons against them due to ground clutter, the heat of the desert floor in the background etc. Plus they’re also very difficult to pick up visually.
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GMT
I’m forever picking up helos when I’m scouting for ground movers. I’ve no idea how realistic this is, but it works in BMS.
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reportedly they are difficult for fighter radars to track, not due to a lack of a good return (well, not solely - ground clutter can be an issue) but because the return doesnt make sense. The PD waves get very different doppler shifts depending on which part of the helo they reflect off, so it seems like a large collection of different target returns all traveling at different speeds - although when it looks for the same return on the next sweep, it is not located in the predicted gate, because it was not moving in the direction it seemed to be.
Yep, its the rotor blades. Messes up the tracking system. Means you cant get a lock for a radar gunsight, you cant slave a missile to look at the target, you cant easily transition directly to out the window viewing with a HMCS lock…
