SAM Confusion
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Hi guys,
Hope I’m posting in the right place, and sorry for the beginners question…
With regard to SAM sites like the SA3 and 4 when using the HAD, I wonder which target I should be aiming to destroy. I am doing the HARM Training mission 12 in the TE and having difficulty understanding the BMS-Training.PDF. It says that the ‘S’ displayed next to the 3 or 4 (depending on which SAM site you are looking at) is related to the sites search radar, and that destroying this radar will not prevent the SAM site from firing as it has nothing to do with missile guidance (will perhaps only decrease range and reaction time of site).
On page 114 the training manual shows two pictures of a locked up SA4, on the left a Pat Hand radar and a locked up Long Track on the right. It then goes on to say 'Both are valid shots but only the right scenario will render the SAM site harmless.
Now forgive me if this is blinding obvious, but I would have thought it would be the left shot that would render the site inoperable, as in the paragraphs before the manual states that the search radar only functions for early warning etc and has nothing to do with missile guidance.
Basically, should I be opting to lock up the ‘S’ or the ‘4’ with regards to a SA4 site?
Cheers in advance
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the 4
My youtube Channel (Falcon BMS and DCS) http://www.youtube.com/c/revientorreborn
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Definitely
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This is not an uncommon question. Like the other comments you want the number and not the S. The S is a radar that is not part of the SAM site, it’s an independent search radar. This can be an airfield radar or just a radar site. The SA-3 radar will have a 3, the SA-4 radar a 4 and so on. Hitting these radars will have the desired effect. For SA-15’s the radar is located on the launcher, for SA-2 and older missiles, which are fixed and form a site, the radar is located with the missile launchers and hitting it nullifies all the missiles. As a beginner the best way to SEAD attack is to recon the site and put the missile launchers as fixed steer points from 10 up. SEAD in campaign will be 2 x HARM and 4 CBU’S. So you zap the radar with the HARM and then use steer points to zap the missiles with the CBU’S. Then fly home and revel in the glory.
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The S is a radar that is not part of the SAM site, it’s an independent search radar.
Nope. Not necessarily always the case.
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This is not an uncommon question. Like the other comments you want the number and not the S. The S is a radar that is not part of the SAM site, it’s an independent search radar. This can be an airfield radar or just a radar site. The SA-3 radar will have a 3, the SA-4 radar a 4 and so on. Hitting these radars will have the desired effect. For SA-15’s the radar is located on the launcher, for SA-2 and older missiles, which are fixed and form a site, the radar is located with the missile launchers and hitting it nullifies all the missiles. As a beginner the best way to SEAD attack is to recon the site and put the missile launchers as fixed steer points from 10 up. SEAD in campaign will be 2 x HARM and 4 CBU’S. So you zap the radar with the HARM and then use steer points to zap the missiles with the CBU’S. Then fly home and revel in the glory.
I will check the DB but I try to post without “spoilers”. Are some things which should not be known by players.
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Appreciate the help guys, I thought this was the case but was a little confused by the manual.
Can HARMS be used on a pre planned target steerpoint? I have tried this before and get mixed results. Sometimes they don’t hit the target and I wonder if this is because the SAM’s radar is not turned on when I fire on it?
Would you suggest the best approach for a beginner is to
1: find the emitting SAM radar I am trying to kill with the HAD
and
2: then clean up the launchers with bombs via pre planned steers? -
Attack the ‘4’ (Pat Hand), and ignore the ‘S’ (Long Track).
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I see all new SAM behavior tweaks in 4.33u1 thankfully. Firstly not all SAM’s will light up in your HTS until you are danger close. I just flew a DEAD mission against an SA-3 just northwest of Pingpong and even though it engaged me at 8 miles the 3 symbol never appeared in my HAD; I had an S symbol there at the TGT Steerpoint and hit it with an AGM88 but it still downed my in a volley of missiles. Beautiful graphics btw. The days of 100% PK for AGM88 are officially over. Sometimes they miss or simply damage to radar. The radar may even continue to engage me but the missiles miss and appear unguided. I have definitely seen the HAS is less effective than the HAD not sure if that is believable yet it is true. Now there are also SAM sites that have an SA2 and SA3 in the same location. Perfect JSOW fodder btw.
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That’s interesting to hear. Sounds like like the developers are making things more and more realistic which is awesome. I have been flying the HARM training mission (ver 4.33 not 4.44u1) and although I get early spikes on the RWR from the SA3 and SA4, the SA6 really tries to lure me in before it switches on its Radar. I find I have to fly well within its engagement zone before I can detect it (even though I know its position from briefing), and so have been trialing different methods (mainly with the HAD) to disable it. If I select the SA6 TGT steer on my HSD and fire a HARM at it from outside its engagement zone, it doesn’t seem to work and I wondered whether it was because the SA6 was completely silent. Do you know if my HARM will fly directly to that steer and explode, regardless of whether or not the SA6 radar is emitting? I had been thinking that maybe it just ‘fizzled out’ because when it got close it had nothing to lock onto. Or is it more likely what you have just explained, i.e. that the improved modelling in 4.33 is probably allowing the missle to either miss the target completely or only damage it?
I haven’t learnt how to use the JSOW’s yet but just watched a video on them and am keen to try them out. Looks like you can loft them from a fair distance out.
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Both are valid shots but only the right scenario will render the SAM site harmless.
Both are valid shots but only the correct scenario will render the SAM site harmless.
The later is what I believe the author is trying to imply.
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Cheers Viral, I’d have to agree.
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If you destroy the search radar in an SA-4 battery the FCR remain operational. If you destroy FCS even the search radar remains silent forever. This is beacause of DB. I won’t explain deeper.
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If you destroy the search radar in an SA-4 battery the FCR remain operational. If you destroy FCS even the search radar remains silent forever. This is beacause of DB. I won’t explain deeper.
This does not seem to be the case in-game. We’ve often gotten ‘mud’ from an SA battalion with no FCR. Or so it seems …. maybe something else going on?
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This does not seem to be the case in-game. We’ve often gotten ‘mud’ from an SA battalion with no FCR. Or so it seems …. maybe something else going on?
Only in case the code has been strongly updated. I checked many SAM battalions in DB. They have the same setup as SA-4.
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Only in case the code has been strongly updated. I checked many SAM battalions in DB. They have the same setup as SA-4.
Ok. I’ll pay closer attention. If I find an example, I’ll try to remember to post it.
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Ok. I’ll pay closer attention. If I find an example, I’ll try to remember to post it.
I plan to do a short test tonight with SA-2/3/4/5 and HAWK.
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Basically, should I be opting to lock up the ‘S’ or the ‘4’ with regards to a SA4 site?
Here is what the training manual clearly says on page 114:
Note how both the SA-3 and SA-4 have a double symbol displayed on the HAD. Both have an ‘S’ symbol almost superimposed on the ‘3’ or ‘4’ symbol. The S stands for Search and is the search and acquisition radar of the SAM site; a Flat Face for the SA-3 and a Long Track for the SA-4 SAM site. The search radar cannot guide missiles so destroying the search radar will not prevent the SAM site from firing; it will only decrease its range and probably reaction time. Your target should be the Pat Hand radar, displayed with a ‘4’ symbol.
The left has the Pat Hand (4) designated, but it’s not tracking. The right picture has the Long Track in tracking mode and designated. Both are valid shots but only the right scenario will render the SAM site harmless.
And therein lies the problem
The picture is wrong Indeed
The picture should show the 4 designated and emitting while it’s apparently the S that is still tracking.
and the text should say:
The left has the Pat Hand (4) designated, but it’s not tracking, while the Long track (S) is emitting but untargeted. The right picture has the Pat Hand (4) in tracking mode and designated.
Both are valid shots but only the right scenario will render the SAM site harmlessI’ll correct that in the next revisionRed Dog
Reality if for ppl who can't handle simulation -
@Red:
And therein lies the problem
The picture is wrong IndeedI went through BMS-Training a few months ago and still remember my confusion about that explanation. Probably because the feeling barely came up while reading the manual. I remember I indeed concluded I would rather lock the S, and never had to care about it later, anyway.
Everything you need to know and links in my Youtube channel, "About" section.
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… something which is not implemented per say, is the RWR’s library ambiguities. So we played with some data to introduce a bit of “suspense” in some cases. not perfect, but this is the only thing we can do for now.
Just for ppl how do not know: An RWR never tell the reality. It just shows a picture of what he think according to electronic waves receive and depends highly on RWR libraries accuracy, and technical capabilities.
http://falcon.blu3wolf.com/Docs/Electronic-Warfare-Fundamentals.pdf
