JSOW frustration
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What Ed_1 is saying at least from how I read it, is that bubble sizes directly affect weapon range and aggregation and whether the target is hit or not. I’m pretty certain that was definitely 4.32 behavior. And I-Hawk from what I can read (and maybe I am comprehending this incorrectly) is saying that the bubble isn’t linked only to the jet anymore, but to the weapon itself. Reading between the lines he seems to be foreshadowing 4.33, at the time which seems to work under a new system. I’d love to get an official answer from him as this is important, but I think the weapon will hit, regardless of your distance once launched as it is it’s own entity now and not directly linked to the jet anymore. Only when on the pylon and directly linked to a sensor. He said it was limiting otherwise if it is limited to player bubble.
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Unless they have drastically changed it, I can say over my time developing on Falcon and as a member of a Falcon team, it was always the case that the weapon has a bubble tied to it as do all targets and if the player, which of course has a bubble strays out of the dimensions of that by turning away, that that can cause the weapon to miss.
But yes, I agree, if all that has been changed, it would be nice to get a clear cut explanation, so this could all be put to rest.
BTW, if you look at the CT Index or CT Data for the BMS Editor for weapons, they still have a bubble defined!?! But now the box no longer is labeled “Bubble” as in past tools, it is “Fine Update Range” in the BMS Editor, but the value is still the same at 60760!?
C9
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Yeah my friend, I can see both point of views and you might actually be totally correct, but when Shadow mentioned that it may be changed, I went searching and found that old post and I-Hawks teasing, as this was pre-4.33 release when this was written. It may not be changed at all and still works the same way as ever.
Part of my original answer was sort of irrelevant because I misunderstood what was being said, due to the posters limited English, specifically which IR missiles he’s talking about. That’s why I was picturing an undetected SA-10 or something of the sort. Only later after he clarified he went A2A, only then did I realize he was talking about IR from aircraft he went fighting against. I thought he was just misunderstanding where the missile was coming from and still flying in the general direction of the target he launched the JSOWs at which makes a big difference.
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Yeah, that’s why I quoted I-Hawk saying “Yes” to Ed_1 about his remark of a player turning out of the dimensions and the eventual miss. I’m sure you know that, just reiterating it.
But it will be interesting to hear if it was actually changed or not.
Off Topic: Now back to gathering data for some……errrr other theater!! Oh and making tiles. Should have some tidbits tomorrow evening.
C9
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I looked at the code now and I see that indeed, if you fired all such missiles, and now you have 0 quantity but you still keep the weapon type (meaning it’ll not work with Nav/AA modes or if you change weapon to say bombs), the missile position that was fired already will stay deaggregated, until impact.
But then again, it’s not complete code as it keeps only 1 previously fired missile position and as I said, it’ll not work if changing Master modes or selecting a weapon of different type.
In “operational” situations, you might target 4 different SAM radars which are positioned very far from each other, with say 4 JSOWs, fire all 4, then turn around and maybe engaged by bandits, and considering JSOW may take 3-4 minutes sometimes to reach the target, it’s not uncommon that you will have to change master mode while missiles are still airborne, and that’s where the problem is.
He went A2A. And gets “dead” Either/or and both are going to cause problems.
I have an other question… is it normal that all fired weapons disappear from the moment I get shot down? Had this issue a few times, release my weapons, they are still on their way, then I got shot down and all 8 missiles get a missed status at this time… or is this a thing that depends on theaters?
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That quote of I-Hawk’s was from April 2013. That particular issue with targets not staying deaggregated during long range air-to-surface weapon time-of-flight was fixed for 4.33 iirc.
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That quote of I-Hawk’s was from April 2013. That particular issue with targets not staying deaggregated during long range air-to-surface weapon time-of-flight was fixed for 4.33 iirc.
I know it was, and your comments above is what I was alluding to in a earlier post but was unable to find any references to it in change logs/posts. Can you access any info on the changes ?
I knew some work was done but couldn’t remember the details.
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@Cloud:
Unless they have drastically changed it, I can say over my time developing on Falcon and as a member of a Falcon team, it was always the case that the weapon has a bubble tied to it as do all targets and if the player, which of course has a bubble strays out of the dimensions of that by turning away, that that can cause the weapon to miss.
…C9
This sounds contradictory when I read it so I don’t think I’m reading it correctly–The first part you say each weapon has a bubble, then you say leaving the bubble will cause a miss. Isn’t that the point of the bubble, so it keeps the 3D running around it even if you leave the area?
FWIW the way I read I-Hawk’s comments previously, and the way it worked before, the Non-Aircraft bubble is tied to the SPI/FCR cursor location, but it is a rather small bubble. You can still see this behavior on the FCR in A/G mode by slewing over a ground target and watching it slowly expand into a column at a distance, then watching it return to a single blip when you move the cursor away. If you engage a target with a stand off weapon and stay in A/G, with the SPI or TGP still in the same general area, this should never be an issue. If you launch and switch to A/A as he mentions he did, the possibility exists that the SPI bubble collapses before the JSOW bubble overlaps, which sends the target back to 2D–100% miss rate every time.
I-Hawk’s comment however, that the JSOWs do NOT use temp bubbles, leads me to believe the launching aircraft would need to maintain A/G mode and keep the SPI in the same general area for an effective attack, assuming the target is outside the player bubble. As Dark and Shadow mention, the issue with long-range targets not aggregating back to 2D was fixed–or at least worked on, how was it done? If the solution was to expand the SPI bubble while in A/G, this would track with Shadow’s comment that going A/A causes issues, as well as stay inline with the older code, and more or less explain the behavior explained in the post which resurrected this thread. Another solution would be to extend the time which the bubbles exist, or extend the aggregation timer, which is probably a cleaner and easier code fix, but really only provides a 90% solution, especially for very long range engagements, as he mentioned 45NM.
Either way, it appears only one “remote” bubble for a stand-off weapon can exist, so if the targets extend past the range of the bubble location for the last fired weapon, the first ones will all miss anyway.
Whatever the case, I concur with C9 and Red, a little clarification would be great.
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BMS-Manual 2.7 Weapon Changes.
“A temporary bubble has been created to keep the area of interest deaggregated (sensor position, AI ground attack position, A-G missile targets) allowing longer range attacks outside of the player-bubble to be more effective. Weapon performance is now consistent in 2D regardless of range settings in the data.”
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BMS-Manual 2.7 Weapon Changes.
“A temporary bubble has been created to keep the area of interest deaggregated (sensor position, AI ground attack position, A-G missile targets) allowing longer range attacks outside of the player-bubble to be more effective. Weapon performance is now consistent in 2D regardless of range settings in the data.”
Oh, Great, that now makes everything REALLY interesting!! So which is it?? Makes it all crystal clear!! LOL
C9
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Thanks gents for the hints so far. I will make a mission to make the issue visible and be reproduced every time, then I will come back with results
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BMS-Manual 2.7 Weapon Changes.
“A temporary bubble has been created to keep the area of interest deaggregated (sensor position, AI ground attack position, A-G missile targets) allowing longer range attacks outside of the player-bubble to be more effective. Weapon performance is now consistent in 2D regardless of range settings in the data.”
This just adds more questions: No mention of a bubble for the actual weapon, so if the target is outside the player bubble, and there is a gap between player bubble and SOI bubble, what happens to the missile in between? Earlier comment states only one can exist at any given time; is that specific to each type of interaction mentioned above? (Sensor, ground attack, Weapon target) Or a single external bubble shared among them? If I use the TGP to target a tank, create the stpt, then launch a stand off weapon, which of these 3 owns the bubble? I technically have done all 3 actions which could invoke the temporary bubble.
@Cloud:Oh, Great, that now makes everything REALLY interesting!! So which is it?? Makes it all crystal clear!! LOL
C9
Agreed…
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so if the target is outside the player bubble, and there is a gap between player bubble and SOI bubble, what happens to the missile in between?
This is what I was trying to explain where you thought my statement was contradictory! I could have worded it better. And of course the end result would be a weapon miss.
Regardless of what the situation is concerning that there is OR isn’t a bubble or temp bubble for weapons, then what’s the explanation for the weapon misses. Something’s surely going on. Turning away would seem to point to leaving the AO thus causing the issue?? Going A2A?? Turning and burning and going A2A??
Something smells fishy here??
C9
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I’m leaning more toward switching to A/A for the misses. Although it really could be any number of things. At that distance, if there is a 1-Bubble limit and the targets are not relatively close to each other then all the targets outside the window would miss but the last one. If the targets ARE going back to 2D, and/or the JSOWs for that matter, then I believe they just cease to exist? I don’t recall seeing anything that performs a graceful transition for munitions in-flight to an aggregated status (Since they don’t exist in 2D, this would be a 2D combat execution) Obviously this would register in debrief as a miss. But as for disappearing, I’m guessing the temp bubbles are explicitly tied to A/G mode, at least in this sense or example. The SPI changes when you make the switch to A/A, so if this temp bubble is slaved to the SOI/SPI/Cursor, and it is only 1 allowed outside of player, then it would collapse the instant you switch to A/A and refocus the SPI (Bubble) where the A/A cursor is on the FCR. No bubble, no missiles. That’s my best guess.
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The SPI changes when you make the switch to A/A, so if this temp bubble is slaved to the SOI/SPI/Cursor, and it is only 1 allowed outside of player, then it would collapse the instant you switch to A/A and refocus the SPI (Bubble) where the A/A cursor is on the FCR. No bubble, no missiles. That’s my best guess.
At best, I’d have to agree, but upon further review….HAHA
So if that is the case, then looking back, it would end up being, one problem fixed, one problem produced, EH?!?!
Hmm, that reminds me of some code work I’ve heard about, it could be a lore though, if I recall correctly, it was the uhmm, Falcon code or something like that!!!
C9
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@Cloud:
Oh, Great, that now makes everything REALLY interesting!! So which is it?? Makes it all crystal clear!! LOL
C9
The “is now consistent in 2D regardless of range settings in the data.” I find a bit vague.
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The “is now consistent in 2D regardless of range settings in the data.” I find a bit vague.
I thought 2D was a mistype. Range should be one of the ONLY things in that data that should effect 2D combat, since it’s all statistical mock-engagements without any real simulated entities.
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So… Tacview?
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So, did some researach… Found out some points.
If you fire from about 40NM away at FL280 to an airport and turn away in the opposide way, you missiles will hit the ground but nothing else because the targets you have been choosing do not exist any more
If you fire them and get shoot down but still alive (hanging on the chute or so) the missiles will hit most times.
If you fire and get completly killed but stay in 3D for 6 or 7 minutes they will hit.
If you fire and get killed and leave 3D world, your missiles will diasappear at this moment… no hits…
So far, so good or bad…