Cadet Mentors
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I would also add to what Creeper said. Not only is the definition fun different for everyone, sometimes it takes time to figure out what your definition of fun actually is! This might mean trying a few different wings to find what type of wing you feel you fit best in. For many I’ve known and talked to, the old adage “third time’s a charm” holds true and they try 3 different wings before finding the wing that fits their definition of fun.
+1 and another 100
Taking time to figure out what’s “fun”, figuring it out, and then taking it to the next level creates a completely new level of “fun”. Some guys plateau. Some guys give up. Some guys crave more. What I love about this sim I also curse. It’s so immense, just when you think you’ve got it all figured out… you realize you don’t even know what you don’t know. There’s always something else.
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- If they want, they can join as “FNG”, during which they have no obligation to us in any way, but they can fly some missions with us to see how we actually operate, and if they could see themselves doing that. We don’t really impose a time frame on this stage, but we aim to have clarity within 1-2 months, depending on FNG availability.
- If they like what they see, and they request to start training with us, they become Probation Pilots (PP). In this stage, PP’s continue to fly missions with us, but now, we’ll also provide them with documents to study and arrange 3 separate and guided/supervised Initial Squadron Training (IST) flights of about 90 - 120 minutes each, to teach them basic stuff they’ll need every flight (e.g. ramp start, take-off, landing, formation flying, first brevity etc.). In the past year, for reasons unknown, we have had nobody continue past this stage…
Should they pass the IST, we continue on to Air Combat Training (ACT), where PP’s learn how to perform in A-A and A-G roles with gradually increasing hostile opposition. Our aim is to get a PP through his ACT phase in roughly 6 - 8 months. - At the end of the ACT flights, which they fly as a wingman, the PP’s do a two-ship Flight Lead Upgrade (2FLUG) flight. This serves as a bit of an exam, where the PP needs to show he understands what he was taught, by coming up with a game plan and taking control over the flight. If they pass the FLUG, they become two-ship leads and reach Belgian Virtual Tiger (BVT) status.
- During their stay in the BVT, they’ll get continued training on how to perform in and lead fourships, culminating in the 4FLUG.
- After the 4FLUG, we provide optional courses that further increase their skills, so they can take control over an entire package, and later even become mission (aka COMAO) commander.
This sequence is similar to what we use.
The guest status is not really limited in time, it remains until the guest decides to commit to training or he just disappears for whatever reason.
once they commit to training, they become recruit and goes through BFT. BFT focus is on the aircraft avionics and being a good wingman (this is not learned in books, and must be taught in flight - more on that later)
once they graduate BFT, they are granted access to AFT. That is focused on more tactical things and convert the recruit from wingman to 2 ship flight lead.
Once they graduate AFT, they may be given ViperDrivers membership.
Training doesn’t stop there as there are many other more advanced stuff to master. the life of a VFW member is constantly impacted by training in one form or another.
The whole process takes about a year to complete. Again, there is no restrictions to regular combat TE the wing may organize. That said, we can restrict some complicated TE to a certain level. We use this both as a safeguard for the seasoned pilots and a motivation factor for the recruits.As in your experience, we also have a lot of guys committing to BFT (your PP) and stalling before the end of it.
I believe that one part of the answer to the why lies in the final grade flights. Ppl are afraid to fail.
Another reason why I think many ppl can’t prevail is that they want things to be immediate. They believe they can join a VFW and master BMS in 6 weeks. Then they realize it takes more time than this and just loose motivation in search of something easier.Who takes care of the really new guys?
I understand that IPs have limited free time but isn’t the “barrier” to entry a bit high? Maybe not for seasoned fliers who’ve played Falcon 4.0 and mods, AF, and now BMS, but look at it from a point of view of really, really new blood to the genre.I think the answer have already been given, and basically I agree.
but there is another layer to it.
I don’t think there are really new guys here anymore. By that I mean a guys who’s never sat in a sim before coming to BMS. There are on the other hand, a lot of guy who are brand green in MP. there is a distinction here.- 1st I believe that the majority of the guy coming to BMS, certainly have been active with other sims before (returning Falcon3 pilot, DCS, FSX, ….) there might be a minority coming straight to BMS but read below
- 2nd I noticed that a lot of guys are afraid to screw up in MP - because they feel they are going to be judged by their pairs. Many new guys we had in our wing wanted to train solo even before the guest flight. That’s mostly the newcomers to MP. so by the time they are ready to commit to MP, they are not really newbees anymore. they can already do a lot of things on their own.
Some did good and would become proficient pilots, some learned bad habits from outdated documentations or badly done video ‘tutorials’ and our IP would have to correct these bad habits, which is even harder to do than to teach an ab initio.
Most VFWs ask that applicants can rampstart, take off, navigate, drop bombs, do air-to-air refuelling, have dogfights, RTB, and land. What about those that struggle in one or more areas? I’ve known of a few guys that have held off applying to VFWs because they can’t tank that well or they need more A-A dogfight practice…. if only they’d known that they could apply to A-G specific squadrons or that the wing can sometimes arrange an alternate landing site for those that can’t refuel.
I don’t think that assessment is correct. By the looks of it, many VFW accept these guys as well - I know we welcome them as well.
But the candidate himself is often reluctant to commit straight because he’s new at MP and concerned about screw-ups in front of other guys.
Once again, it would depends on the training philosophy of the VFW. We teach rampstart, we teach basic navigation, we teach avionics all in BFT. So our program (and I’m sure other’s as well) take these candidates into account. The more seasoned pilots should go through these basic items in a flash, but very often we pinpoint some lacking skills and address them at the same time. that’s the reason why a seasoned pilot also has to go through our full training program.Are there VFWs that take on applicants no matter the level of proficiency? While we’d all like to have Type C pilots (as per Red Dog’s post), won’t we be severely limiting ourselves if we can’t deal with or help Type As or find roles for Type Bs?
Yes. and these real newbees can develop into a A, B or C type of pilot. To quote an example our wings has more constraint on hardware than on proficiency. We believe that you can’t fly the way we fly without a good hotas and a head tracking device. We ask that candidates have at least these two sim hardware in a good state of order and they are able to manage them.
Let’s face it a new guy who never has been in contact with a sim won’t have the hardware. That augment my arguments about the fact that there is no real ‘really new guys’ around
I strongly believe that joining a VFW is not the first thing you do when you come in contact with the sim world. you get acquainted with the sim first, if you’re hooked then you look for the hardware and then you look at setting up this hardware (which in the case of a hotas is already part of the learning curve) and then only will they look at proficiency and MP and that’s only the moment where some ppl may look for a VFW.I also find the 75-80% washout rate interesting. Any ideas on why the students wash out? How much of this is due to 1) real life issues, 2) expectation/reality incompatibility, or 3) lack of skills/brain power for the material?
On top of what’s been said before, i also think part of the answer is the lack of ability to commit to something on the long term. ppl wants it fast. the learning curve here is slow and steep.
A candidate motivation’s is also judged by the action of the candidate - being a real newbee or a seasoned sim pilot). Someone flying the TE’s but never asking anything or who is never proactive to request training or shoot questions is not motivated enough (IMHO) Again, some people are too proud to ask questions. It’s the same on the forum. Ppl are too hesitant to screw up in front of all and then they use PM rather. At least if they ask stupid questions, only one guy read them.
But there is no stupid questions, these needs to be cleared and answered as well. there is no problem looking like a fool. It happens to all of us. No later than yesterday I made a blue on blue. So what?
Seasoned pilots can screw up big time as well. The problem is that the new guys are even more concerned about showing up their weaknesses. That’s counterproductive.
People are also more often than not reluctant to accept their mistakes => that’s counterproductive as well, especially in any aviation related stuff.
I don’t think any VFW wants superheroes as candidates. they rather want pilots who screw up but who are able to learn from these mistakes. That to me is a key factor. -
In terms of “modes of learning” some people have difficulty reading a 400 page manual, you have to admit that it can be intimidating to a newcomer! Some people prefer video tutorials, while others prefer to “learn by doing.” None of these modalities are necessarily “better” but a well-rounded training program should understand and attempt to accomodate each of them.
That’s an old debate and it’s true indeed. But if ppl have trouble reading a 400 page manual they should stop right there, because they will lose their time in the long run. (by the way, not so long ago ppl had the same argument but with the lack of proper documentation ) There is (imho) no way to avoid it
It doesn’t mean you can’t use videos or learn in the sim, but the groundwork is done in the books. It’s by reading the books that you can pinpoint mistakes in these plethora of so called video tutorials. if you don’t know the stuff, you’ll take what you see in the videos for granted and often you will be mislead, because the guy doing the video might have overlooked a few things due to lack of experience. I have seen great vids and not so great vids just a week after the 4.33 release. How can a guy become proficient in just a week where we dev needed years to write the docs ? The answer is simple, they based their stuff on their experience with the previous version and often induced confusion, lacking the small detail that changed in 4.33 … Anyway, that’s another debate.I would like to ask a few more questions. How well do you think, and how utilized are, the built-in training TEs in the sim? I think we can we can all agree that they are far from complete, but how well would running, and passing, each of the training TEs help your vetting of potential recruits?
I think they are still very new and not well known. Having made them, I based them on my experience as training other ppl in a VFW.
So IMHO they should serve the VFW purpose very well. But it probably needs some time to be recognized as suchSome years back I had this pie in the sky idea for community training. It never really got past the pie in the sky idea to start with.
I don’t think community training would work simply because there are too many different philosophy wings out there. the training would depends on the philosophy of the wing and their definition of having fun with the sim.
Obviously if having fun is blowing sh*t all around regarless of the way it was done, the training requirement will be different from a wing where the definition of fun is to be able to master complicated things and remain on top of your game and having flown a great TE with great comms and great mutual support where you did minor screw up but reckoned them and learned something for the next flight.
There are VFW in all three zones.
the blow stuff VFW
the perfect TE VFW
and the VFW somewhere between these two extremesBy the ViperDriver, our definition of fun is learning.
We never had that “perfect” TE yet. We strive for it, but every TE brings its share of screw-ups that we want to learn from and apply on the next flight.
some screw ups are minor, some screw ups are major. from seasoned or green pilots. The common factor from the pilots should be their will to learn from their mistakes to become better -
Excellent replies gents! Let me continue being “the bad guy” here for discussion’s sake.
Firstly - let me define what “enjoy the sim” means –- this means whatever it is that the simmer is looking for to feel he has had a good time. Be it blowing stuff up, mastering tanking, being able to win a dogfight, etc. This DOES NOT MEAN proficiency nor does it mean being good in other areas. The guy who wants to dogfight may win after firing 3 AIM-120s then finally getting the bad guy with a heater. The guy who wants to tank may only want to do it straight-and-level and will leave tanking-in-a-turn for another lifetime. The guy who wants to blow stuff up may need 2 or 3 passes to hit the broad side of the barn, or only wants to drop LGBs from Angels 30. The important part is that after 30-60 minutes of flying, the new pilot has the feeling of “can’t wait for the next flight!!”
I think we’re concentrating too much on the guys that want to fly “full real” and while there’s nothing wrong with that, I return to my original question.
Who takes care of the really new guys? They do.
Fair enough, and I fully see your point. I’ve talked to and trained a few guys and having to help them set up their controls does get to the point of testing the patience. I’m not talking about those, people who feel that they can have zero input and get maximum output.
I’m talking about the different guys who learn different ways. Some can read a manual or a textbook, retain the information, and apply the knowledge once “in the field.” Others can read the manual/textbook, but it won’t make sense until they’re out “in the field,” get a few hours of experience, then come back to the manual/textbook and go “so THAT’S what that meant!!” I would even speculate that there’s a third group who skips the manual altogether and tries to “wing it” and then just goes to the material when they hit a snag. In all three scenarios, even assuming the same skill level, there’s no denying that having someone to help, someone to point them to a relevant section of the manual, will greatly increase their enjoyment of the sim.
One thing we have to remember here –- it’s fine to expect a person to have internal motivation, but we also have to remember that this is a hobby. Where a RL pilot can spend hours and hours combing manuals and memorizing stuff, an applicant may only have a few hours free each week due to other RL responsibilities. Having that helping hand can seriously accelerate their learning and fast forward them to the point where they enjoy the sim.
The way I see it, that 400 page manual is excellent for covering a topic in detail. There’s a reason they exist. You dont need to memorise the dash, but some parts of it are essential, while others are ‘nice to know, but it can be looked up in flight if necessary’.
Excellent point, but who is going to highlight which parts are important and which parts aren’t? This is like someone saying “I want to be a doctor” and then someone shows that young medical student ALL the books he will cover during his first year of training and then leaving him to it. Well, he wants to be a doctor so he should “take care of himself” and read those books. Not really a good way to start.
Let me try to make the point this way:
I’m also an avid tabletop RPG player. Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder RPG, and so on. I can tell you that it’s easier getting new players by saying “just come and bring your imagination, I’ll take care of the rest” rather than plonking the 300+ page Player’s Handbook and saying “you need to read this before we start.” While it’s nice to have that player that has “done his homework” or has had previous experience and knows his way around the Player’s Handbook, if I were to limit myself to those types of people, my gaming circle would be very limited. However, by lowering the barrier of entry to “What type of character do you want to play? Fighter? Rogue? Archer?” and having the required skill being the ability to roll dice and do simple maths, I essentially open up my gaming table to anyone who wants to play “pretend” for a few hours, has taken a bath within the last week, and can interact with a small social group.I may not want to play with all of them; some seem to want more banter than playing, others want to ROLLplay instead of ROLEplay, others ROLEplay to the hilt to the detriment of the group, and so on. But in the bigger picture, there’s new blood in the hobby and while they may play that way NOW, they may grow and be more flexible and be potential tabletop buddies later on.
Well I just want to say anyone can learn this simply by studying, that’s all there is to it – hard work. You have to be smart, study hard, and try to push yourself to do harder and harder things. Start with each building block and then eventually put it all together.
I do admire what you’re trying to do but I think you are confusing a hobby with a real-life career. Sure, some people fit your criteria (hardcore) and I’d like to think I’m one of them, but I’m afraid most people may move on to something else before the building blocks all come together if there’s no one to show them how things come together.
Another aspect I’d like to put forward is that a new pilot may not realize there is a better way of doing things aside from what he’s doing now. Something like “you don’t know what you’re missing until it’s gone,” but this time it’s “you don’t know what you’re missing if you don’t even know it exists.” How many times have you come across someone who has said “no, that’s not for me” only to try it and say “OMG! This is awesome!!”? Whether the topic is food, an experience, a hobby, whatever… sometimes, you have to nudge (or PUSH!!) the people the right way a few times and then they’ll bite.
@Red:
I don’t think there are really new guys here anymore. By that I mean a guys who’s never sat in a sim before coming to BMS. There are on the other hand, a lot of guy who are brand green in MP. there is a distinction here.
That is true and reading this thread, I’ve come to realize that VFWs don’t really train people how to fly BMS but more like train people how to fly BMS with other people.
However, I’ve also seen some instances where people return to simming but immediately rule out BMS because they think it’s too hardcore, the learning curve is too steep, or as one guy puts it, “I don’t want to have to push 20 buttons just to drop a bomb.” They are afraid of not being able to hack it, of being told to RTFM. While some would say “who cares about those people then?,” aren’t we limiting ourselves by being too snobby?
@Red:
Let’s face it a new guy who never has been in contact with a sim won’t have the hardware. That augment my arguments about the fact that there is no real ‘really new guys’ around
I strongly believe that joining a VFW is not the first thing you do when you come in contact with the sim world. you get acquainted with the sim first, if you’re hooked then you look for the hardware and then you look at setting up this hardware (which in the case of a hotas is already part of the learning curve) and then only will they look at proficiency and MP and that’s only the moment where some ppl may look for a VFW.Yes, but the hardware may be dependent on a person’s personal circumstance. They may not be able to afford a full HOTAS. They may not have the space for it. They may be content with a Logi 3D Pro, are able to take off, do stuff, and land, but cannot tank not because they cannot do it, but because their hardware cannot give them the finesse needed and as they’ve not tried anything else, they do not know it their hardware that is the limiting factor.
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Firstly - let me define what “enjoy the sim” means –- this means whatever it is that the simmer is looking for to feel he has had a good time. Be it blowing stuff up, mastering tanking, being able to win a dogfight, etc. This DOES NOT MEAN proficiency nor does it mean being good in other areas.
Please allow me to comment further on just this point. The above statement is your definition, but most likely not “the” definition. While not being proficient may be fun for some, it can be absolutely no fun for those who strive to be, expect a certain level of the same from others, and obtain their fun factor from it. Some senior pilots do not enjoy flying and fighting with greener pilots who can’t hold their own and be a productive member of the team. Most of them don’t mind instructing/assisting someone to become such a team member (the majority actually enjoy it), but when it’s “go time” (campaign/designated flight night [where someone took time to create a TE or the like]/FvF event) these greener/newer pilots can most likely to expect to be on the bench. I’m not saying that’s the way of all, but it certainly is the way of some. As with most any facet of life, different people find fun/enjoyment in different ways. This sim is no different.
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I’ve come to realize that VFWs don’t really train people how to fly BMS but more like train people how to fly BMS with other people.
However, I’ve also seen some instances where people return to simming but immediately rule out BMS because they think it’s too hardcore, the learning curve is too steep, or as one guy puts it, “I don’t want to have to push 20 buttons just to drop a bomb.” They are afraid of not being able to hack it, of being told to RTFM. While some would say “who cares about those people then?,” aren’t we limiting ourselves by being too snobby?
OK, so I lied. I’d like to comment on this as well. Of course VFW’s train people how to fly with other people, that’s the entire point of a VFW. As for the “aren’t we limiting ourselves by being too snobby?”: Perhaps we’d be truly limiting ourselves by catering to those who clearly do not care to invest the time/energy that can be required for this sim. As with most any other facet of life (yeah, I know), you’ll only get out of it what you put into it.
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One thing we have to remember here –- it’s fine to expect a person to have internal motivation, but we also have to remember that this is a hobby. Where a RL pilot can spend hours and hours combing manuals and memorizing stuff, an applicant may only have a few hours free each week due to other RL responsibilities. Having that helping hand can seriously accelerate their learning and fast forward them to the point where they enjoy the sim.
While the time constraint are true, I disagree with the result. To me a passionate flight simulator dude can actually know more about the aircraft than the real pilot flying it.
I know I’m going to shock a few people here saying so but I have seen some serious real life pilots (civil and military) biased by their work and I know a few fellow simmers knowing way more about the F-16 than the real F-16 pilots. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying these ppl would fly the F-16 correctly. I’m saying that some hobby may be passionate up to the point that learning and spending hours learning the minute details is not a big issue.
Other hobby are similar. Do you think you can be a good photographer in 6 weeks? No
Take the scale modelism hobby, it takes decades to make a good scale modelist. And some of us have multiple hobbies too
The bottom line is that when you enjoy what you do you don’t care about the time it takes.
So my point is, the time constraint is not a problem for passion driven ppl, and these guys habe intensive work and families and the usual life crap thrown at them as wellExcellent point, but who is going to highlight which parts are important and which parts aren’t? This is like someone saying “I want to be a doctor” and then someone shows that young medical student ALL the books he will cover during his first year of training and then leaving him to it. Well, he wants to be a doctor so he should “take care of himself” and read those books. Not really a good way to start.
spoonfeeding that exactly what happens at school btw. Teacher who can make their cursus interesting are a minority. Many of them just read the damn book, which is useless.
Luckily, there is the practical work, and that’s exactly the same thing as this topic, the VFW provides the practical side of thingsLet me try to make the point this way:
I’m also an avid tabletop RPG player. Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder RPG, and so on. I can tell you that it’s easier getting new players by saying “just come and bring your imagination, I’ll take care of the rest” rather than plonking the 300+ page Player’s Handbook and saying “you need to read this before we start.” While it’s nice to have that player that has “done his homework” or has had previous experience and knows his way around the Player’s Handbook, if I were to limit myself to those types of people, my gaming circle would be very limited. However, by lowering the barrier of entry to “What type of character do you want to play? Fighter? Rogue? Archer?” and having the required skill being the ability to roll dice and do simple maths, I essentially open up my gaming table to anyone who wants to play “pretend” for a few hours, has taken a bath within the last week, and can interact with a small social group. I may not want to play with all of them; some seem to want more banter than playing, others want to ROLLplay instead of ROLEplay, others ROLEplay to the hilt to the detriment of the group, and so on. But in the bigger picture, there’s new blood in the hobby and while they may play that way NOW, they may grow and be more flexible and be potential tabletop buddies later on…Well enjoyment is a dual lane avenue. there is the enjoyment of the candidate and there is the enjoyment of the seasoned pilots within the same group.
Both have to be preserved. and that happens only when all the guys share the same philosophy and are trained on the same basis. Again, that’s why there are different type of VFW out there.
You can’t have a guy screwing up the enjoyment of 4 others because all he wants is to blow sh*t up at all costs and doing so he departs his teammate, pursue a bandit, kill him but doing so he’s attacked by the rest of the bad guys who in turn can attack the original formation because of the gap in mutual support.
By lowering the barrier of entry, this is what would happen imho
There is a very big difference between these type of games you mentioned (and I play Wot too) where you can play and be efficient with a very limited time due to the arcade style of the game and BMS who is clearly a study sim and where only these willing to dedicate the time necessary will not be a liability to their fellow pilots.Another aspect I’d like to put forward is that a new pilot may not realize there is a better way of doing things aside from what he’s doing now. Something like “you don’t know what you’re missing until it’s gone,” but this time it’s “you don’t know what you’re missing if you don’t even know it exists.” How many times have you come across someone who has said “no, that’s not for me” only to try it and say “OMG! This is awesome!!”? Whether the topic is food, an experience, a hobby, whatever… sometimes, you have to nudge (or PUSH!!) the people the right way a few times and then they’ll bite.
That’s why VFW are pushing ppl to try MP and that’s why some wings like ours makes guest flight (or the BVT solution as illustrated earlier)
That is true and reading this thread, I’ve come to realize that VFWs don’t really train people how to fly BMS but more like train people how to fly BMS with other people.
Yes. Actually that’s it. VFW is the next logical step to the sim hobby: flying MP. that opens door to more advanced scenario you can’t do solo.
But to fully enjoy that in a very demanding environment, flying and using the jet must be second nature. you have to be able to concentrate on the aspect of flying with other humans while you fly and use your jet’s system totally naturally, without dedicating brainpower to it. that’s why training is so important. the MP environment is demanding and it needs most of the brain power available - inversely proportional to the level of experience of the pilot.However, I’ve also seen some instances where people return to simming but immediately rule out BMS because they think it’s too hardcore, the learning curve is too steep, or as one guy puts it, “I don’t want to have to push 20 buttons just to drop a bomb.” They are afraid of not being able to hack it, of being told to RTFM. While some would say “who cares about those people then?,” aren’t we limiting ourselves by being too snobby?
We are limiting ourselves because of the actual washout rate. At 75-85% we can’t devoid times on these guys because doing so we may miss to train a guy who is worth it.
So yes I am not willing to take this guy on to training. I did in the past and nowadays I know it’s all lost time.
Some more junior IP may still decide to try, we’ll see once they have 10 years of experience what they think about itYes, but the hardware may be dependent on a person’s personal circumstance. They may not be able to afford a full HOTAS. They may not have the space for it. They may be content with a Logi 3D Pro, are able to take off, do stuff, and land, but cannot tank not because they cannot do it, but because their hardware cannot give them the finesse needed and as they’ve not tried anything else, they do not know it their hardware that is the limiting factor
What good is a guy in a VFW if he can’t tank because of his hardware?
that means the admin team has to see the bottlenecks of some TE’s and restrict the whole VFW because of that guy?
Sorry, no way. the admin of a VFW is another factor that takes time and a further task the usual guys (who are also IP) have to manage.
It’s all added workload on these guys (us) for the enjoyment of the candidates that should be preserved from learning too much or getting the right hardware?
Does that sound logical? Not to me -
Please allow me to comment further on just this point. The above statement is your definition, but most likely not “the” definition. While not being proficient may be fun for some, it can be absolutely no fun for those who strive to be, expect a certain level of the same from others, and obtain their fun factor from it. Some senior pilots do not enjoy flying and fighting with greener pilots who can’t hold their own and be a productive member of the team. Most of them don’t mind instructing/assisting someone to become such a team member (the majority actually enjoy it), but when it’s “go time” (campaign/designated flight night [where someone took time to create a TE or the like]/FvF event) these greener/newer pilots can most likely to expect to be on the bench. I’m not saying that’s the way of all, but it certainly is the way of some. As with most any facet of life, different people find fun/enjoyment in different ways. This sim is no different.
You are correct, that is not “the” definition or the only definition. However, I was making that example in support of my previous statement:
@-Ice:I can see the point in training someone so he can be a better pilot, training someone so that you have someone to fly with, but does anyone see value in training someone so he can simply enjoy the sim?
As you can see, it was from a “newbie” point of view and not meant to cover everyone. I was referring to those who struggle with the basics, or are just learning the basics, not someone who has a firm grip on the basics and is looking to “hone his craft.”
OK, so I lied. I’d like to comment on this as well. Of course VFW’s train people how to fly with other people, that’s the entire point of a VFW. As for the “aren’t we limiting ourselves by being too snobby?”: Perhaps we’d be truly limiting ourselves by catering to those who clearly do not care to invest the time/energy that can be required for this sim. As with most any other facet of life (yeah, I know), you’ll only get out of it what you put into it.
I’m not sure I follow… where did I say anything about you lying?
As to VFWs training to fly with other people, well, let’s just say that for numerous instances, people who ask for help learning the sim or “honing their craft” are often advised to “join a VFW” but on the flip side, some (maybe most?) VFWs have the bar set so that those who were asking for help to learn the sim will fall below the requirements.
Please don’t take too much offense regarding the “snobby” comment; I guess this is a result of the RTFM thread we had here a while back. However, on that topic, yes, you are limiting yourself. Similar to my RPG example above, if I only played with “those that have invested the time/energy” to read the Player’s Handbook, my gaming circle would be too small. By pouring a little more effort, I expand my circle and even now, I am introducing TWO friends who have had no prior tabletop RPG experience and have had no previous knowledge of the existence of this particular type of hobby. Instead of waiting for the fish to land in my lap, I went out, cast my line, and caught myself one (or two!).
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I’m not sure I follow… where did I say anything about you lying?
Oh no, not you at all! I was referring to my own comment of “please allow me to comment further on just this point” from the first of the two above posts, just to turn around and comment on another. :uham:
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@ Red Dog:
Passion - true, but not all people are here because of passion. Maybe some have just embers burning, and what I’m saying is that if these guys are not taken care of, if they don’t find their “enjoyment” in the sim, the embers may die down and they move onto some other hobby.
I’m not saying this sim is easy, I’m not saying people will “get it” in 2-3 weeks. What I’m saying is that if you (we) fail to “catch” people with their embers glowing, we are missing out on potential. Do Air Force or Army recruiters show potential recruits the amount of study material they need to go through? Or do they fill the recruit’s head with ideas of “flying with the best of the best”? Do they tell them about the sleepless nights and intense pressure they’re going to face? No, and this is for a JOB.
If I tell somebody he’ll need to go through A, B, and C and it’ll take XX hours before he can drop a bomb, what are the chances of him sticking around?
If I tell that same guy to give me 30 minutes of his time and he can drop a bomb, what are the chances of him sticking around? Sure, his takeoff will be sloppy. Sure, we’ll do a Taxi or Runway start instead of a Ramp start. He won’t be able to do formation flying and I bet he’d rather poke his eyes out than tank. He’ll also probably scrape the brakes on the jet when landing, that is if he doesn’t come down too hard and break the landing gear! But he’s had fun! What are the chances of him sticking around?
We can always work on improving other areas later on, but we can’t do that if the guy no longer sticks around.
Spoonfeeding - that’s the extreme end. I’m talking more like “concentrate on chapters 8-10 and we’ll talk about that next week.” That’s what my university professors did, and they did not even cover EVERYTHING on chapters 8-10, just the important parts.
We always say learning BMS is like eating the elephant –- it’s best to do so one bite at a time. It’s even better when people tell us which parts of the elephant is best to start on.
Enjoyment - Sure, I see what you’re saying. But will the 4 guys enjoy flying with each other all the time forever? What happens when one of them can’t make it? Or the 2nd one has to bail out due to family/work/life? We need new blood, and those with experience will have to make allowances.
You’ve cited the extreme example here, one guy goes lone wolf and the whole group gets screwed. Option 1 - let him go and find his own “Air Quake” buddies. Option 2 - show him the error of his ways and how mutual support and real-life tactics make things much better for all involved.
We all talk about challenging ourselves, learning new stuff, going for the next level. Passing IQT, then MQT, going for 2-ship FLUG, then commanding a 4-ship. Why not challenge ourselves with showing the beauty of co-op MP to those who are unaware of it?
Tanking - how hard is it to put a flight closer to the FLOT or assembly point? How hard is it to desginate a closer runway as an alternate? He can take off from there, meet up with the group, ingress, attack, egress, then he RTBs separately. Is doing this too much workload? If #4 separates from the flight early, will that ruin the experience so much for the “experts” that can tank inverted, at night, in a storm? If #4 were to meet the group in the air after the group has tanked for ingress, will that break immersion so badly that they’d rather fly as a 3-ship?
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Oh no, not you at all! I was referring to my own comment of “please allow me to comment further on just this point” from the first of the two above posts, just to turn around and comment on another. :uham:
Haha… gotcha! I was worried there for a bit, thinking that I implied something that negative.
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I’m going to attempt to shine a little more light on this subject, and perhaps explain why a lot of instructors/VFW’s (especially the senior/tenured ones) tend to shy away from “FNG” training. An example:
A VFW has 3 pilots. These guys started at the same time, learned together, and have progressed together as team. They have since decided to “open their doors” and bring in some fresh blood. All 3 of them are willing to teach the basics on up. They conduct an interview with a new candidate and give him/her the green light. These guys take the time to teach it all… cockpit orientation, TNFL (takeoff/navigation/formation/landing) and they taught it well. 5 weeks worth. At this time, they’ve had no chance to do anything in the sim other than instruct the newbie. No flights of their own. No personal gains. 5 weeks devoted to another flier. Then comes COMBAT training. 2 days into it and the student just vanishes… several attempts are made to find out why and a generic “I’m too busy” response is all they get. 5+weeks basically wasted.
They don’t get disheartened, they don’t give up. They try again. This time it’s a winner. Line basics are done, combat basics are done. They start on some advanced stuff, and one of the IP’s gets a real life curve ball thrown their way. A hopeful and potential 4 ship has just been lost. Gotta get that 4th guy!
Another interview, another promising candidate. It doesn’t work.
ANOTHER interview, this one makes it through the basics but again the wheels fall off during the combat phase.
During all this time, the core group still hasn’t flown together. They haven’t progressed in their own flying. In fact, they’ve lost proficiency in what they already had. And now, they’re down a core member. They’ve got a guy who’s gone through the basics, but then had to stop his/her progression due to attempting to bring in that other new person.
Do this for a year. Two, five, ten…
I hope this shines some light on why there’s a base-line expectation. There can be so much to lose behind the scenes that frankly… a new pilot knows nothing about. Remember a VFW wants to build a TEAM who fly TOGETHER. A new candidate who can’t show one iota of a team minded approach just will not fit in. They can’t be expected to, and they most likely won’t be given a chance. Nor should they be.
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@ Red Dog:
Passion - true, but not all people are here because of passion. Maybe some have just embers burning, and what I’m saying is that if these guys are not taken care of, if they don’t find their “enjoyment” in the sim, the embers may die down and they move onto some other hobby.
Agreed, I was just giving you the opposite side of the coin.
Do Air Force or Army recruiters show potential recruits the amount of study material they need to go through? Or do they fill the recruit’s head with ideas of “flying with the best of the best”? Do they tell them about the sleepless nights and intense pressure they’re going to face? No, and this is for a JOB.
They lie they make you think you’ll be in a wonderful life where in fact you will study, loose all social life but with your pairs, probably never have a decent family life all this for less than one hour flying per week
Okay okay, that’s venting some past experience It’s not always like that luckily !!If I tell somebody he’ll need to go through A, B, and C and it’ll take XX hours before he can drop a bomb, what are the chances of him sticking around?
If I tell that same guy to give me 30 minutes of his time and he can drop a bomb, what are the chances of him sticking around? Sure, his takeoff will be sloppy. Sure, we’ll do a Taxi or Runway start instead of a Ramp start. He won’t be able to do formation flying and I bet he’d rather poke his eyes out than tank. He’ll also probably scrape the brakes on the jet when landing, that is if he doesn’t come down too hard and break the landing gear! But he’s had fun! What are the chances of him sticking around?That’s assuming VFW do that, we don’t. Matter of fact, dropping a bomb is done even before training, at the guest flight and even the first training flight use dumb bomb.
So the assessment is incorrect. that’s also the reason - as I said before - that most of VFW don’t restrict TE’s to recruits, because it has a motivation factor, exactly as I explained earlier.Flying for real is easy, a kid of 10 years and my grandma can do it. Flying precisely and putting these wheels exactly on the spot the pilot decided is difficult and require a lot of practise
it’s the same for flight sims. Everybody can do it. Die and start again. But doing it precisely is where the intensive work is required. Once again, different VFW, different goals.But I don’t think that even in the most hardcore VFW, it takes XX hours before dropping a single bombs.
Spoonfeeding - that’s the extreme end. I’m talking more like “concentrate on chapters 8-10 and we’ll talk about that next week.” That’s what my university professors did, and they did not even cover EVERYTHING on chapters 8-10, just the important parts.
We always say learning BMS is like eating the elephant –- it’s best to do so one bite at a time. It’s even better when people tell us which parts of the elephant is best to start on.again, that’s what VFW do. The training program and TE clearly refers to specific chapters in the manuals according to the training flight goals.
Enjoyment - Sure, I see what you’re saying. But will the 4 guys enjoy flying with each other all the time forever? What happens when one of them can’t make it? Or the 2nd one has to bail out due to family/work/life? We need new blood, and those with experience will have to make allowances.
Sure, that’s why we invest so much time in training. But the old heads are usually pretty stable in the long term, because they have been through it all and their motivation is not questioned. Yet some get biased or leave the hobby for sure. But how come the new guys aren’t so stable and have so high washout rate?
You’ve cited the extreme example here, one guy goes lone wolf and the whole group gets screwed. Option 1 - let him go and find his own “Air Quake” buddies. Option 2 - show him the error of his ways and how mutual support and real-life tactics make things much better for all involved.
indeed. and we’re back to square 1
Type B pilot
Those who learned from their mistake will be type C pilot, but a few guys can’t get the message and will still screw up the next time. Because their need to blow up things is greater than what the VFW have been told them. that’s usually the moment they become a liability and a problem. In real life, they are thrown out of the program.We all talk about challenging ourselves, learning new stuff, going for the next level. Passing IQT, then MQT, going for 2-ship FLUG, then commanding a 4-ship. Why not challenge ourselves with showing the beauty of co-op MP to those who are unaware of it?
Some of us have that tee shirt already, which is why we can talk about it at length in this topic
Tanking - how hard is it to put a flight closer to the FLOT or assembly point? How hard is it to desginate a closer runway as an alternate? He can take off from there, meet up with the group, ingress, attack, egress, then he RTBs separately. Is doing this too much workload? If #4 separates from the flight early, will that ruin the experience so much for the “experts” that can tank inverted, at night, in a storm? If #4 were to meet the group in the air after the group has tanked for ingress, will that break immersion so badly that they’d rather fly as a 3-ship?
What about timing constraint. If the TE’s is TOS sensitive and a guy needing 15 minutes to tank?
What about if that same guy crashes at the airstrip for hotpit refuel because he can’t learn short field technique?
What about pressing as a 3 ship after a tank abort, what about mutual self support?
As a flight lead, do you let that guy go home or alternate single ship, without mutual support or cover? and is the 2 ship left out to carry the mission specific is enough for mission success?
What about a TvT environment where there is no alternate airbase?We can discuss all night long with argument and counter argument, bith side are valid, but proficiency should be acquired in training to avoid these issues.
If one guy can’t cope, he’s a liability to the rest of the guys, sorry
HE’s been trained, he didn’t try enough, he’s been trained again and still can’t do it? There is really a lack of ‘something’ then -
Surprised to read the high percentage (in some cases seems 100%) of available flight time given up for the recruit. I suppose it’s in relation to the overall size of group. Personally I would be pleased and grateful to receive 1hr a week and would hope the group would be enjoying themselves for at least 3 times that amount. Wouldn’t wish to think it had come to a halt whilst a trainee got all available time. That would be intense pressure in fact.
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I’m going to attempt to shine a little more light on this subject, and perhaps explain why a lot of instructors/VFW’s (especially the senior/tenured ones) tend to shy away from “FNG” training. An example:
A VFW has 3 pilots. These guys started at the same time, learned together, and have progressed together as team. They have since decided to “open their doors” and bring in some fresh blood. All 3 of them are willing to teach the basics on up. They conduct an interview with a new candidate and give him/her the green light. These guys take the time to teach it all… cockpit orientation, TNFL (takeoff/navigation/formation/landing) and they taught it well. 5 weeks worth. At this time, they’ve had no chance to do anything in the sim other than instruct the newbie. No flights of their own. No personal gains. 5 weeks devoted to another flier. Then comes COMBAT training. 2 days into it and the student just vanishes… several attempts are made to find out why and a generic “I’m too busy” response is all they get. 5+weeks basically wasted.
They don’t get disheartened, they don’t give up. They try again. This time it’s a winner. Line basics are done, combat basics are done. They start on some advanced stuff, and one of the IP’s gets a real life curve ball thrown their way. A hopeful and potential 4 ship has just been lost. Gotta get that 4th guy!
Another interview, another promising candidate. It doesn’t work.
ANOTHER interview, this one makes it through the basics but again the wheels fall off during the combat phase.
During all this time, the core group still hasn’t flown together. They haven’t progressed in their own flying. In fact, they’ve lost proficiency in what they already had. And now, they’re down a core member. They’ve got a guy who’s gone through the basics, but then had to stop his/her progression due to attempting to bring in that other new person.
Do this for a year. Two, five, ten…
I hope this shines some light on why there’s a base-line expectation. There can be so much to lose behind the scenes that frankly… a new pilot knows nothing about. Remember a VFW wants to build a TEAM who fly TOGETHER. A new candidate who can’t show one iota of a team minded approach just will not fit in. They can’t be expected to, and they most likely won’t be given a chance. Nor should they be.
Very well explained Creeper !!!
It’s not only about the candidate who needs to invest time into this. the team willing to form and train him invested way more and very often this group is at the edge. Both party work hard and then it will work, if only one party works hard, whatever side it is, then it will fail. Commitment comes from both side
Surprised to read the high percentage (in some cases seems 100%) of available flight time given up for the recruit. I suppose it’s in relation to the overall size of group. Personally I would be pleased and grateful to receive 1hr a week and would hope the group would be enjoying themselves for at least 3 times that amount. Wouldn’t wish to think it had come to a halt whilst a trainee got all available time. That would be intense pressure in fact.
yeah, it’s very often the case - you’re right it probably depends on the overall group size. If you’re able to allow 2 flights per week (and that’s already a lot considering a 1h flight time is probably a lot longer preparing, briefing, debriefing and assuring communications with the other IPs) and if you have 2 recruits assigned to you, there is nothing left to enjoy tactical combat TE.
I am aware my proficiency - and in the long term my motivation - suffered from that.
As a consequence I decided to slow down and reserve me time for what I like best. not exclusively, but both at the same time to keep a certain balance. But that decision came with experience and led me to my opinions nowadays -
Thanks for that info, Creeper. Believe it or not, I do know what you’re talking about.
While I also agree that there are some people who “can’t show one iota” of whatever, do know I was not referring to them but rather to those “potentials” that just needed that little bit of “extra.” As we all know, however, there is no way to reliably filter these “potentials” from the others.
So yes, it all boils down to effort put in vs. results and for some, the results just aren’t worth it.
@Red:
They lie
Haha! I’m sure they have a different term for that! Point still stands though!
@Red:
That’s assuming VFW do that, we don’t. Matter of fact, dropping a bomb is done even before training, at the guest flight and even the first training flight use dumb bomb.
So the assessment is incorrect. that’s also the reason - as I said before - that most of VFW don’t restrict TE’s to recruits, because it has a motivation factor, exactly as I explained earlier.Ah, fair deuce, and with that, I think we’re operating on the same page.
@Red:
Sure, that’s why we invest so much time in training. But the old heads are usually pretty stable in the long term, because they have been through it all and their motivation is not questioned. Yet some get biased or leave the hobby for sure. But how come the new guys aren’t so stable and have so high washout rate?
I won’t have the answer for that. Maybe it’s the new “Call of Duty” and “Battlefield” generation? Maybe it’s current RL pressures? That’s why I asked you earlier about the washout rate – the answer to that is your answer.
@Red:
Those who learned from their mistake will be type C pilot, but a few guys can’t get the message and will still screw up the next time. Because their need to blow up things is greater than what the VFW have been told them. that’s usually the moment they become a liability and a problem. In real life, they are thrown out of the program.
Yeah, if they want personal glory, throw them out. I, too, have no patience for Air Quakers. I will stretch my patience to those that struggle but are going in the right direction, but I agree that not everyone is going the right direction. The beauty of Falcon though is that those who think they are Ace Combat pilots soon learn that this is NOT the sim for them.
@Red:
What about timing constraint. If the TE’s is TOS sensitive and a guy needing 15 minutes to tank?
What about if that same guy crashes at the airstrip for hotpit refuel because he can’t learn short field technique?
What about pressing as a 3 ship after a tank abort, what about mutual self support?
As a flight lead, do you let that guy go home or alternate single ship, without mutual support or cover? and is the 2 ship left out to carry the mission specific is enough for mission success?
What about a TvT environment where there is no alternate airbase?We can discuss all night long with argument and counter argument, bith side are valid, but proficiency should be acquired in training to avoid these issues.
If one guy can’t cope, he’s a liability to the rest of the guys, sorry
HE’s been trained, he didn’t try enough, he’s been trained again and still can’t do it? There is really a lack of ‘something’ thenDepends… if the tanker track is close enough or the alternate is near the assembly point, then #4 could probably delay takeoff until the rest of the flight is done tanking. Having him join the flight, you will agree, is better than waiting for him for 15 minutes as he tries to tank.
I think you slightly missed my point here. My point was that “alternative measures” could be taken to cover a weakness, in this case flying out of a closer airbase to offset fuel usage that would require tanking skills. The scenario was that #4 would join the flight just before “mutual support” or “cover” was expected to be needed, ie, behind the FLOT.
Also, I’m not saying this is the situation indefinitely, but rather as an interim measure as his skills/budget/hardware improve Read post #84, last paragraph. Not an argument about skill or training, but rather limitations imposed by hardware — and how the VFW can adjust to suit.
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yeah, we’re on the same page, I know you played devil’s advocate.
rest assured that in our VFW we go the extra mile for most if not all candidates. And that’s why it’s hard to see them go at a moment or another.
And seeing the success of the other VFW, I am sure it’s the same on their side of the fence.I hope that this topic not only serves the purpose to share information between VFW managers but also shows a bit what we expect from candidates. It’s important that candidates reckon the level of work and kind of investment some guys are making to train them.
Regardless of all what’s been said here, it’s fun and opens great door with many different individuals.
Should I start over, I’d redo the exact same. Proof that even if I am sometimes frustrated about it, I still love doing it and sharing the MP possibilities BMS has to offer -
I do admire what you’re trying to do but I think you are confusing a hobby with a real-life career. Sure, some people fit your criteria (hardcore) and I’d like to think I’m one of them, but I’m afraid most people may move on to something else before the building blocks all come together if there’s no one to show them how things come together.
Another aspect I’d like to put forward is that a new pilot may not realize there is a better way of doing things aside from what he’s doing now. Something like “you don’t know what you’re missing until it’s gone,” but this time it’s “you don’t know what you’re missing if you don’t even know it exists.” How many times have you come across someone who has said “no, that’s not for me” only to try it and say “OMG! This is awesome!!”? Whether the topic is food, an experience, a hobby, whatever… sometimes, you have to nudge (or PUSH!!) the people the right way a few times and then they’ll bite.
I’m not sure I see it the same way as you. I don’t believe we confuse a hobby for career. Just because something is a hobby doesn’t mean you have to do things sloppy, use it as excuse for lack of effort, or any of the myriad of reasons folks don’t put in their best. It doesn’t take all that much to be “hardcore.” And if folks are too impatient to develop themselves then they never had it to begin with, there isn’t really a loss there. They weren’t a part of it anyway, it’s just some guy “passing through” this part of town.
Now as far as giving that nudge a new guy needs, that’s what our local area orientation flight is for. It’s part of the interview and let’s the prospective pilot get a sense of the work it takes in a “high level” wing, let’s us assess where the student is at already, and let them decide if what we do is really for them. All that’s in place already. The pilots don’t show up out of a vacuum and learn the tactics, it’s all building blocks that add on the last lesson learned plus what they’ve taught themselves before coming to the wing. So that’s the push, hopefully the pick up the ball and run with it. If they don’t then there is maybe a wing with pilots at the skill level they’re looking for.
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Excellent point, but who is going to highlight which parts are important and which parts aren’t? This is like someone saying “I want to be a doctor” and then someone shows that young medical student ALL the books he will cover during his first year of training and then leaving him to it. Well, he wants to be a doctor so he should “take care of himself” and read those books. Not really a good way to start.
No, its not, and you had to misread my post to get to that idea in the first place. I just finished saying how the manual is great for one thing, and tutorials where you explain the important stuff from the manual are great for another thing, but you pick out just the part about the manuals being great. To answer the question, the IP is going to highlight which parts are important. Its not at all like telling someone to read the manual and leaving them to it - if you think that constitutes instruction, you have another think coming.
I do admire what you’re trying to do but I think you are confusing a hobby with a real-life career.
I have heard this so many times. You would think it would have stopped stinging me, that I would be numb to it. But no, it is just as frustrating as the first time someone told me that I was putting too much effort into something that is ‘only a hobby’. If everyone listened to that statement, there would be no replica cockpits.
@ Red Dog:
Passion - true, but not all people are here because of passion. Maybe some have just embers burning, and what I’m saying is that if these guys are not taken care of, if they don’t find their “enjoyment” in the sim, the embers may die down and they move onto some other hobby.
I’m not saying this sim is easy, I’m not saying people will “get it” in 2-3 weeks. What I’m saying is that if you (we) fail to “catch” people with their embers glowing, we are missing out on potential. Do Air Force or Army recruiters show potential recruits the amount of study material they need to go through? Or do they fill the recruit’s head with ideas of “flying with the best of the best”? Do they tell them about the sleepless nights and intense pressure they’re going to face? No, and this is for a JOB.
Well, the RAAF and RAN recruiters I spoke too both spoke more about the drawbacks than the perks. Still, you just finished telling me I dont know the difference between a job and a hobby, so whats it matter whether its for a job or not?
Tanking - how hard is it to put a flight closer to the FLOT or assembly point? How hard is it to desginate a closer runway as an alternate? He can take off from there, meet up with the group, ingress, attack, egress, then he RTBs separately. Is doing this too much workload? If #4 separates from the flight early, will that ruin the experience so much for the “experts” that can tank inverted, at night, in a storm? If #4 were to meet the group in the air after the group has tanked for ingress, will that break immersion so badly that they’d rather fly as a 3-ship?
See, this is a common opinion in the world of Falcon. Folks are spoiled from flying out of the worlds most forward deployed airbases. Its not unusual in the real world for a combat mission to be 700 miles both ways. Often, the answer to how hard is it to move the squadron closer to the FLOT is very, or impossible. An alternate becomes a pain for recovery, particularly if they are not an F-16 base.
Im not seeing what you are trying to get at, -Ice. No animosity here, Im just not understanding the argument you are trying to make here.
EDIT: Sniped!
I’m not sure I see it the same way as you. I don’t believe we confuse a hobby for career. Just because something is a hobby doesn’t mean you have to do things sloppy, use it as excuse for lack of effort, or any of the myriad of reasons folks don’t put in their best. It doesn’t take all that much to be “hardcore.” And if folks are too impatient to develop themselves then they never had it to begin with, there isn’t really a loss there. They weren’t a part of it anyway, it’s just some guy “passing through” this part of town.
Far better said than I managed. Well put.
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I do admire what you’re trying to do but I think you are confusing a hobby with a real-life career. Sure, some people fit your criteria (hardcore) and I’d like to think I’m one of them, but I’m afraid most people may move on to something else before the building blocks all come together if there’s no one to show them how things come together.
This goes back to the definition of fun and enjoyment. What we find enjoyable at the 8th is simulating USAF F-16 operations to the maximum extent possible given the limitations of BMS. That means reading a LOT of manuals and instructional documentation. It means hundreds of hours of training. As you mentioned someone else may find enjoyment in spamming AMRAAMs and then bugging out after watching 1 tutorial on how to lock up a target and pickle. Would that person have fun in our VFW? Nope. Does that mean we have to bend over backwards and change the way we have fun to make sure they stick with us/BMS? Nope. There are a myriad of other VFWs available for them to investigate including ones that will allow them to skip the tanker and divert, fly inverted formation, drop B-61’s on The Supreme Leader’s fat head, land a Viper on a carrier, or whatever else may suit their fancy.