Package Order

[peanuthead]

Hello,

Which flight comes first in a package? If the SEAD is in front then they get engaged by enemy aircraft. If the ESCORT is first then they get shot down by SAM. Also where do you position ECM aircraft, behind the SEAD?

Thank you

[-Vandal-]

You can try setting up a BARCAP just out of the SAM weapon range. I dunno maybe 4 minutes or so before the SEAD arrives at the edge of the SAM range from a different direction. I would try flying a single ESW to jam outside of the weapon range (except SA5s which you’ll I push the ESW airframe to within 30nm). I also have a 2 ship HAVCAP at a minimum for the ESW bird. I keep the jamming and HAVCAP at 20 minutes tops. That should be plenty of time for the SEAD to attack and reattack if necessary. But that’s just from tinkering around in BMS with it. There may be lots of better and more realistic ways to go about it.

[Redshift20]

You are actually pretty close or at least the general idea, Vandal great work. You setup based on mission needs but generally your mission will be setup with what is called, “package timing.” Basically depending on the expected air threat or other factors, you seperate each part of the package by timelines. As low as one intercept timeline and up to three intercept timelines (a timeline being defined as 2-3 minutes) based on role within the package. Our FLUG course goes over this stuff pretty well, here is a graphic I found that really helps describe it.

Here is an example intercept timeline so you have a reference for what I’m talking about:

Here is a generic OCA setup, you expand or collapse these distances based on mission needs, but this is the general flow. These are some advanced TTPs, but a package setup like this will allow the strikers to get BOTOT (Bombs on time, on target).

I live and breath it man, probably too much! Hahaha.

So you can have all or part of it in your package, you may not have the pre-strike SWEEP, you may not have the close escort, I’d say a minimum full package would be ESCORT (1 timeline), SEAD (half a timeline) and the STRIKE itself. Remembering this is generic, you can change it based on what the mission calls for, but generally your ESCORT will go high altitude and out front, with SEAD in the middle at medium altitudes ready to suppress any SAMs that may pop up in the ingress route, with the STRIKE closely managing TOT and keeping SA on the guys out in front and what they’re doing. I.e. the SEAD is engaging a SAM threat and stopping the ingress until called clear by the SEAD flight.

[drtbkj]

@peanuthead:

Hello,

Which flight comes first in a package? If the SEAD is in front then they get engaged by enemy aircraft. If the ESCORT is first then they get shot down by SAM. Also where do you position ECM aircraft, behind the SEAD?

Thank you

I enjoy these type discussions, so here’s my .02. While it’s hard to make generalizations( so much depends on the tactical situation, aircraft type, ordinance,are you escorting a strike package, etc) if it were me I’d put the SEAD strikers slightly ahead with the escort to either flank, and ECM a/c behind as HARM lobbers and/or SOJ’ers

[MorteSil]

@drtbkj:

I enjoy these type discussions, so here’s my .02. While it’s hard to make generalizations( so much depends on the tactical situation, aircraft type, ordinance,are you escorting a strike package, etc) if it were me I’d put the SEAD strikers slightly ahead with the escort to either flank, and ECM a/c behind as HARM lobbers and/or SOJ’ers

I added an EC-130 to the DB to do my SOJ with longer orbit times.

To the OP: You could do a SWEEP package prior to your package and assign some SEAD escort to the Sweepers, or Interdiction package with an escort flight and manually load some AGM-88s on the interdiction flight (Not sure how the AI would do with this one). But really, there is no good answer to this. Attacking a high value target with a lot of AD is a different beast than an unprotected factory or bridge. Something close to an airfield means higher chance of alert fighters. Realistically speaking, you probably won’t be doing much “Strike” activity until the air defenses are more or less nullified. So your early war stuff would be mostly DEAD with escorts. Once the majority of the Surface threat is eliminated, this becomes a much easier scenario to answer because the AA threat is the higher concern.

[-Vandal-]

@Redshift20:

You are actually pretty close or at least the general idea, Vandal great work. You setup based on mission needs but generally your mission will be setup with what is called, “package timing.” Basically depending on the expected air threat or other factors, you seperate each part of the package by timelines. As low as one intercept timeline and up to three intercept timelines (a timeline being defined as 2-3 minutes) based on role within the package. Our FLUG course goes over this stuff pretty well, here is a graphic I found that really helps describe it.

Yeah that makes a ton of sense! When dealing with AI your butt can really be hanging out there but with humans that have good SA (which I don’t) they do a fantastic job of supporting each other and adjusting the plan in flight as needed.

[-Vandal-]

@drtbkj:

I enjoy these type discussions

Yup its’ sort of like sitting at the pub and BSing about your favorite sports team with your mates.

Another thing that I do (at night) is frag Nighthawk strike missions when the air defenses are crazy. AFAIK the game doesn’t allow you to send an F117A on a DEAD mission, so I’ll set something nearby as the strike target and then add target STPTs on the Fan Song or whatever and prosecute the SAMS. You have to fly them yourself. It’s fairly safe if you minimize your time over AAA. I have yet to be intercepted or fired upon by a SAM but I’ve been playing Korea 89 when doing this. It might be different in different theaters.

[-Vandal-]

LOL I said that while flying a Nighthawk mission and then my whole flight get downed by a pair of MiG 23s. So, don’t listen to me!

[Frederf]

In the SEAD-Escort-Strike package structure I consider the SEAD to be first contact launch-and-leave missileers in addition to their SEAD duty. With 8 radar (say 4 free use initial game plan, 4 reserve) per flight they can really soften up and complicate the enemy for a follow up dedicated escort. An AG load and lack of AIM-9s do little to hamper this tasking. The SEAD workload is usually pretty low.

The 6-airplane package is pretty minimal. If it absolutely has to get done then more elements are called for. The rule is to multiply the number you initially think is sufficient by a factor of 1.5-3.0x.

Entry BARCAP
Exit BARCAP
Sweep
Reserve DCA
Close escort
Detached escort
SEAD
DEAD
AAA-SEAD
BDA
SOJ
Lateral diversion-isolation

and if inventory permits a Sopwith with a bomb in the back seat to actually get something done on the ground.

[tbuc]

Some general thoughts:

First of all, F-16Cs in CATIII are not defenseless bombers/attack planes. They still can defend themselves, carry FOX-3s, and a mission commander should exploit these assets in the defense of the package and general mission planning
Second of all, 2-3 minutes with the escort means at combat speeds about 20-30nm. That ONLY works if the threats are expected coming from the main flight axis of the package. This is seldom the case. I remember some years ago flying red air (SU-30s) with 4 ship against 16 Vipers (we were all humans), a full package as was described here. We saw this huge stretched package over 60nm, we flanked them and knocked the strike flight down.
The close escort should be much closer, specially over indian territory, where threats can pop from different axis(see my center-of-gravity tactic)

Actually, a good mission commander, should use the strike flight capabilities in A2A. A strike flight flying in front(!) of the escort can always go cold outside enemy A2A/G2Aengagement ranges, and drag towards its escort/SEAD. Some years ago in the Red Flag theater of FO in Korea, we flew such a tactic: 4 CATIII Strikers were about 10nm in front of 3 escorts. When we were engaged by an enemy 2-ship (humans), the strikers went cold at a range of 35-40nm from the threat, while we the escort was coming from behind full AB, 40k+. The enemy two ship was concentrated on the strikers running cold and got nailed by the fast high flying escorts. Both threats were killed in the first exchange of missiles.

Everything depends whether are you flying with humans or AI:

1. With Humans: Do NOT fly Strikers as defenseless bombers. They carry FOX3s and they can drag for A2A guys. The same in regard to the SEAD flight. In terms of performance, the SEAD can defend themselves, they should be “the first in, the last out”. SEAD pilots should be most skilled pilots of a package. If threats are expect from multiple axis, use what kind of center-of-gravity (COG) approach. Without any threats, the escort/SEAD flights should fly in a such a way to put the strikers between them, the COG. If a threat appears, the COG will move towards the threat, and the escorts/SEAD will move towards the threats. This is a fluid approach to defend a strike package under multiple axis threats.

2. If you are flying with AIs, than everything changes. You have, in my opinion, only few options:
   i) Fly as striker and drag for the AI A2A flights. Act as SAM bait for AI SEAD, which should be flying very close the striker, for example. It does not make any sense to put the SEAD well in front of the package, because it will be killed by enemy A2A really fast.
   ii) Fly as SEAD and drag for the AI A2A. Wild weaseling in front of the package while dealing with A2A threats is a lost art nowadays, specially if you are not carrying ARMs. (which is much funier btw). It requires a lot of training to command the AI properly and go into enemy territory without losses.

[LorikEolmin]

Thanks tbuc, fits way more with the picture I make of package structure.

@tbuc:

Some general thoughts:

First of all, F-16Cs in CATIII are not defenseless bombers/attack planes. They still can defend themselves, carry FOX-3s, and a mission commander should exploit these assets in the defense of the package and general mission planning
Second of all, 2-3 minutes with the escort means at combat speeds about 20-30nm. That ONLY works if the threats are expected coming from the main flight axis of the package. This is seldom the case. I remember some years ago flying red air (SU-30s) with 4 ship against 16 Vipers (we were all humans), a full package as was described here. We saw this huge stretched package over 60nm, we flanked them and knocked the strike flight down.
The close escort should be much closer, specially over indian territory, where threats can pop from different axis(see my center-of-gravity tactic)

Actually, a good mission commander, should use the strike flight capabilities in A2A. A strike flight flying in front(!) of the escort can always go cold outside enemy A2A/G2Aengagement ranges, and drag towards its escort/SEAD. Some years ago in the Red Flag theater of FO in Korea, we flew such a tactic: 4 CATIII Strikers were about 10nm in front of 3 escorts. When we were engaged by an enemy 2-ship (humans), the strikers went cold at a range of 35-40nm from the threat, while we the escort was coming from behind full AB, 40k+. The enemy two ship was concentrated on the strikers running cold and got nailed by the fast high flying escorts. Both threats were killed in the first exchange of missiles.

Everything depends whether are you flying with humans or AI:

1. With Humans: Do NOT fly Strikers as defenseless bombers. They carry FOX3s and they can drag for A2A guys. The same in regard to the SEAD flight. In terms of performance, the SEAD can defend themselves, they should be “the first in, the last out”. SEAD pilots should be most skilled pilots of a package. If threats are expect from multiple axis, use what kind of center-of-gravity (COG) approach. Without any threats, the escort/SEAD flights should fly in a such a way to put the strikers between them, the COG. If a threat appears, the COG will move towards the threat, and the escorts/SEAD will move towards the threats. This is a fluid approach to defend a strike package under multiple axis threats.

2. If you are flying with AIs, than everything changes. You have, in my opinion, only few options:
   i) Fly as striker and drag for the AI A2A flights. Act as SAM bait for AI SEAD, which should be flying very close the striker, for example. It DOES not make any sense to put the SEAD well in front of the package, because it will be killed by enemy A2A really fast.
   ii) Fly as SEAD and drag for the AI A2A. Wild weaseling in front of the package while dealing with A2A threats is a lost art nowadays, specially if you are not carrying ARMs. (which is much funier btw). It requires a lot of training to command the AI properly and go into enemy territory without losses.

[peanuthead]

@Redshift20:

You are actually pretty close or at least the general idea, Vandal great work. You setup based on mission needs but generally your mission will be setup with what is called, “package timing.” Basically depending on the expected air threat or other factors, you seperate each part of the package by timelines. As low as one intercept timeline and up to three intercept timelines (a timeline being defined as 2-3 minutes) based on role within the package. Our FLUG course goes over this stuff pretty well, here is a graphic I found that really helps describe it.

Here is an example intercept timeline so you have a reference for what I’m talking about:

http://eighthfighterwing.com/images/training/2xX%20Timeline%20Commit%20to%2010%20NM.bmp

Here is a generic OCA setup, you expand or collapse these distances based on mission needs, but this is the general flow. These are some advanced TTPs, but a package setup like this will allow the strikers to get BOTOT (Bombs on time, on target).

http://eighthfighterwing.com/images/training/OCA%20Generic.png

I live and breath it man, probably too much! Hahaha.

So you can have all or part of it in your package, you may not have the pre-strike SWEEP, you may not have the close escort, I’d say a minimum full package would be ESCORT (1 timeline), SEAD (half a timeline) and the STRIKE itself. Remembering this is generic, you can change it based on what the mission calls for, but generally your ESCORT will go high altitude and out front, with SEAD in the middle at medium altitudes ready to suppress any SAMs that may pop up in the ingress route, with the STRIKE closely managing TOT and keeping SA on the guys out in front and what they’re doing. I.e. the SEAD is engaging a SAM threat and stopping the ingress until called clear by the SEAD flight.

On the pic posted by Redshift20, where do Jamming aircraft fit in here, before or after SEAD?

Thank you

[tbuc]

If you are flying with a tactical jamming aircraft, be in SOJ or in escort Jamming, the ECM flight is your most important asset and should be protected accordingly.
If you put two much behind (or even at the friendly side of the FLOT), its effect on the AD will be low, although perhaps well protected. A balance must be found between Jamming effectiveness and ECM flight protection. My experience with the AI is that anything between directly below the strike flight up to ~10nm (1min) behind is a good balance ina support jamming mission. Of course, it depends on the AD and threats. Remember, you cannot say in BMS…" ECM flight, hold here while we deal with those MIGs". On the other hand, if it flies too much behind you may not have the correct jamming protection before entering the enemy AD engagement range.

[tbuc]

Another concern, but also very important, is how you plan the ECM mission. Will it fly an orbit? Or will it escort and leave as soon as possible?
By playing with the actions enroute and at steerpoints as well as with the timings and position of the steerpoints, you can set very well whether an ECM flight will fly a SOJ mission or a purely in and out a la escort jamming (without any orbit).

[Redshift20]

First of all, F-16Cs in CATIII are not defenseless bombers/attack planes.

I do not disagree on it’s face one bit, however I will say that their focus is and should be solely on the strike ingress route and getting the TOT within +/- 30 seconds. The TOT is probably the most important factor for them until they are Dakota. Typically their ROE will be restricted to a commit range of 30 miles or so and only generally should only commit on groups that are a direct threat/factor. The escort and SEAD will take care of the bulk of it, that is what they are there for.

If your strike flight is having to engage air threats, that is not a good thing, unless it is a self-escorted strike mission where they don’t have that available to them. Then it’s all about scanning the target area for threats and weighing the decision to press the strike or engage any factor groups that are within 1 intercept timeline of the target. If there is something outside of 1 intercept timeline, typically the decision will be strike the target, then flow to the threat.

Once they are indeed Dakota, their commit ranges can become much more liberal to a standard 40+ and help with air to air on the egress route more effectively. Usually strike will avoid air to air, unless they’re needed and/or directly threatened.

[tbuc]

Don´t disagree that the focus of the strike fligtht should be to hit the tgt within a briefed TOT. My point is different: A package with a rigid structure will always perform worst in comparison to a package where the strike flight assists the ingress by, for example, dragging or tactically maneuvering to put the enemy under pressure. As a mission commander, I can think of a half dozen of ways to maneuver the strike flight to make the A2A kills of the Escort and Sweep much easier. And for that, I need to be close to them. 30nm behind them can be wy too long depending on the situation. Don´t forget the enemy does not know who are the shooters, they only see 16s in their RWRs. If you put the strike flight well protected behind the Weaselers and the A2A guys, you are depriving yourself as MC of a potential advantage. I am not arguing that CATIII vipers should now engage at will the enemy sweep flights. It is a different perspective.
The rigid package structure is a historical thing when fighter with bombs were pigs. Things changed a lot in terms of acft performance.

[Redshift20]

Well, you’re very right about the ability to kill with CATIII, all day long, even during ACM provided everything’s clicking, guys are where they’re supposed to be and ready for SOO. A lot of folks will kneejerk drop stores if they have to switch from A/G to A/A, when you don’t really have to until you’re truly threatened. Even then a properly executed slice back with the associated minimum radius turn and then S-turning as appropriate will defeat incoming missiles easily, even when CATIII.

Part of the reason you want separation of timelines is so that you don’t have too many flights in one spot, it allows greater freedom for the proceeding flight, allowing them to complete timeline tasks without overrunning the previous elements execution. These distances are notational, meaning you can set the distance as the threat level dictates, the example is just generic and not all inclusive or ridged. Remember a timeline is only on average timeline 2 minutes (the time it takes to close 40 miles on a 180 aspect target) so it’s not that long of a time, ideally you have C2 going on, lots of SA to go with it.

So, if you have them separated, the escort can Fox-3, go SKATE flows, and if they’re not dead then your strikers can fire on them if it gets down to that, but then you could have a close escort that takes care of that too. Or maybe they have all the advantage over the threat, they’re winning, there is no other factor groups in play and can go BANZAI without jeopardizing the timing of the strike. As pretty much everything in fighter ops, it just depends lol.

[drtbkj]

@tbuc:

Some general thoughts:

2. If you are flying with AIs, than everything changes. You have, in my opinion, only few options:
   i) Fly as striker and drag for the AI A2A flights. Act as SAM bait for AI SEAD, which should be flying very close the striker, for example. It does not make any sense to put the SEAD well in front of the package, because it will be killed by enemy A2A really fast.
   ii) Fly as SEAD and drag for the AI A2A. Wild weaseling in front of the package while dealing with A2A threats is a lost art nowadays, specially if you are not carrying ARMs. (which is much funier btw). It requires a lot of training to command the AI properly and go into enemy territory without losses.

Good post , tbuc. I’ve also had some success designating a tgt, telling AI wingie to “attack my tgt”, and using him/her as SAM Bait. I’ve also done the opposite and after ordering the attack engaging the site from another angle and using myself as bait, trying to “trick” the AI into doing a cooperative attack.

[LorikEolmin]

@drtbkj:

Good post , tbuc. I’ve also had some success designating a tgt, telling AI wingie to “attack my tgt”, and using him/her as SAM Bait. I’ve also done the opposite and after ordering the attack engaging the site from another angle and using myself as bait, trying to “trick” the AI into doing a cooperative attack.

Are you surprised if I tell you it’s exactly what I do….

[drtbkj]

@LorikEolmin:

Are you surprised if I tell you it’s exactly what I do….

Two Great Minds…?
Seriously, though, that is the kind of thing I like doing in BMS, “working with it”