Military climbing procedure
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I did a test to 25,000 with wing bags and AA Load out back int he 4.32 days. Afterburner takeoff to 25,000 vs MP Takeoff to 25,000 both climbing at 350 Knots. I think I set weather to standard atmosphere as well. The total leg length was 100 NM from TO to testing waypoint at 25,000… Difference was a couple hundred pounds or less. If it’s not going to be a long flight at cruise… AB works just as well as a cruise climb. AB burns more in climb but gets you up to cruise faster so you take advantage of lower power setting at cruise longer. Rough numbers but not the knockout punch I expected. Honestly I just use WDP as it’s based on the real thing anyway.
However, TobiasA I enjoy programming in C# and any excuse to write some code is enjoyable!
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Nobody flies long enough distance/time in BMS to need cruise settings is part of the issue here.
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Nobody flies long enough distance/time in BMS to need cruise settings is part of the issue here.
Can you explain why it wouldn’t be prudent to operate at the most efficient speed and fuel burn vs Mil power for the duration of flight, specifically depending on drag factor and load out? How are cruise power settings exactly not needed, regardless of distance or time?
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Can you explain why it wouldn’t be prudent to operate at the most efficient speed and fuel burn vs Mil power for the duration of flight, specifically depending on drag factor and load out? How are cruise power settings exactly not needed, regardless of distance or time?
Someone I once regarded as a close friend advised me once, that cruise speeds even when most efficient, were not always the most prudent speeds to fly at, in the interests of controllability and reaction to detected threats in close quarters. At the time, I made the counter argument (and still happen to cleave to it) that those speeds were still most applicable for certain phases of flight in certain operational cases - to and from an area for instance, or max endurance whilst on CAP in another instance.
More recently though, its apparent to me that few people fly prototypically, and few people fly missions of long enough range or duration for those power settings to make a big difference to their planned operation. Most folks express surprise at the idea of a total mission radius in excess of 250 miles, while prototypically, anything less is considered a short range mission. As I said above: most folks just dont fly far enough for it to matter to them. Once you start to fly a little more realistically, as some wings do, these things suddenly start to matter a whole lot more.
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It is not very easy to stay in front of a monitor flying a mission longer than 300 Nm. It can be done but the eyes will start to suffer as well as we are not getting money, so it is a big investment of time.
But I will follow you discussion because it is becoming very interesting this subject.
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I have to agree that for the most part flying efficiently as far as a cruise climb won’t net you much in BMS due to the short flights we have, other than an attaboy for having the most fuel remaining when you return. The trick is to fly efficiently while flying in formation with your lead pilot. Nothing worse than getting to the FLOT and your wingman has 1500 - 2000 lbs less than you. Not so hard to keep the gas in fingertip but when you are maneuvering tactically and trying to stay in position proper technique will net you lots of fuel savings and keep you out of the Afterburner! This is where I focus my fuel savings techniques!
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@bill_3810:
The trick is to fly efficiently while flying in formation with your lead pilot. Nothing worse than getting to the FLOT and your wingman has 1500 - 2000 lbs less than you.
Its worth noting that as much onus there lies on the lead as on the wingie.
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It is not very easy to stay in front of a monitor flying a mission longer than 300 Nm. It can be done but the eyes will start to suffer as well as we are not getting money, so it is a big investment of time.
But I will follow you discussion because it is becoming very interesting this subject.
I hear yeah… When I had my full cockpit and was single, I would love flying 3 hour plus missions in the Balkans… Now being married with kids, I have to stick to short missions in Korea that are not too much longer than one hour.
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@bill_3810:
I have to agree that for the most part flying efficiently as far as a cruise climb won’t net you much in BMS due to the short flights we have, other than an attaboy for having the most fuel remaining when you return. The trick is to fly efficiently while flying in formation with your lead pilot. Nothing worse than getting to the FLOT and your wingman has 1500 - 2000 lbs less than you. Not so hard to keep the gas in fingertip but when you are maneuvering tactically and trying to stay in position proper technique will net you lots of fuel savings and keep you out of the Afterburner! This is where I focus my fuel savings techniques!
That’s just simply not true. Let’s just go with a 200 mile flight (home plate to target) I guarantee you can save approximately 1000 lbs or more by using the correct climb schedule, cruise speed and power settings until fence in, and decent profiles on RTB which means more time over the target and more fuel to react to changing situations. It doesn’t matter if it’s 50 miles or 800 miles every flight should be at the most efficient possible and it’s incredibly easy to do. It takes about 15 mins to plan the performance of the airplane tops.
Look up the F-16 supplement and flight manuals on Google, break into the book, study the tables and calculate the applicable numbers. You should calculate all takeoff performance, time to climb, speed and fuel burn, optimum and mil cruise, penetration or max range descent and landing performance for every flight. BMS is within 1% of the real world numbers IMHO, it is one of the best flight and engine models ever simulated, Falcon nails it.
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It takes about 15 mins to plan the performance of the airplane tops.
Now I feel bad for taking 8 hours to calculate the max TMR mission profile for a specific config
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Now I feel bad for taking 8 hours to calculate the max TMR mission profile for a specific config
You don’t think that’s a little long?? Very cool package you put together on that, btw irc……
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Not that long considering my lack of practice at doing so. Still I would go so far as to say Id be impressed by any viper driver who said they can do a complete mission profile, unless it was a very simple profile, in 15 minutes. 4 to 6 hours is I understand prototypical for mission planning duration. Not that all of that time is spent on performance calcs, but even so.
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Not that long considering my lack of practice at doing so. Still I would go so far as to say Id be impressed by any viper driver who said they can do a complete mission profile, unless it was a very simple profile, in 15 minutes. 4 to 6 hours is I understand prototypical for mission planning duration. Not that all of that time is spent on performance calcs, but even so.
Well sure, but for the purposes of simulating it, running through a profile takes me around 15 minutes, but that’s just getting the aircraft’s numbers for the day including weather, NOTAMs, ect. Then there’s planning everything else. I’d say closer to 2-3 hours for a full up mission, planning for mutual support, the whole 9. Can be done quicker as needed, then there’s the standard missions where you fly them so much like IQT or MQT you just know the numbers by heart as the IP. As with everything in the fighter world, it just depends….
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That’s just simply not true. Let’s just go with a 200 mile flight (home plate to target)
Now see, add just a hundred miles onto that and you will get some folks asking if the jet can even manage that far XD
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Now see, add just a hundred miles onto that and you will get some folks asking if the jet can even manage that far XD
LOL! +1
She’s got some legs for a small fighter that’s for sure. If I recall it can fly further than the F-22!
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I confess Im not sure on the range of the F-22. Still in ferry config an F-16 is pretty well set up to go where you need it. Being able to hit targets in the 4 figures miles range from takeoff is a nice perk
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One of my favorite tricks is to takeoff from Japan, bomb China, and return all on own fuel. It really enforces some careful management.
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That’s just simply not true. Let’s just go with a 200 mile flight (home plate to target) I guarantee you can save approximately 1000 lbs or more by using the correct climb schedule, cruise speed and power settings until fence in, and decent profiles on RTB which means more time over the target and more fuel to react to changing situations.
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Prove it….just do it in campaign mode with AA & AG threats? Show me the numbers when you’re done. Sometimes getting to altitude quicker is more advantageous for the mission. If you just want A to B then sure fly your econ profile. My point is it’s so dynamic that it’s really hard to say just how much you can actually save… but if you want to see then set up a test. I tested it before over 100 NM and I saved 200 lbs with a climb profile VS AB climb to cruise and we both arrived on station at the same time.
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Its worth noting that as much onus there lies on the lead as on the wingie.
If he can’t manage this he doesn’t need to be a lead in the first place so I suggest you pick a better lead the next time. However I’ve flown with many a lead pilot that the terms smooth and predictable don’t often collide in the same sentence when managing a formation flight, however it’s still your job to stay in formation and proper maneuvering and throttle control will allow you to save fuel and still maintain position. When I get one of these I look at it as a challenge! For example when flying as your wingman
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@bill_3810:
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Prove it….just do it in campaign mode with AA & AG threats? Show me the numbers when you’re done. Sometimes getting to altitude quicker is more advantageous for the mission. If you just want A to B then sure fly your econ profile. My point is it’s so dynamic that it’s really hard to say just how much you can actually save… but if you want to see then set up a test. I tested it before over 100 NM and I saved 200 lbs with a climb profile VS AB climb to cruise and we both arrived on station at the same time.
The savings come from many places, the optimum climb profile in either AB Climb or Mil Climb, then flying at an optimum cruise as long as tactically appropriate, and then flying a penetration descent. I don’t need to calculate an example profile for you to prove anything, but I’m happy to share my knowledge.
A 200 mile at a typical strike load out with a drag factor of 250 will require approximately 2500 lbs to fly to the target, same with the return to home plate.
The optimum climb will burn 900 lbs of the 2500 lbs we need to get to target at this weight and DF.
At the push point we accelerate in Mil power (assuming we haven’t been threatened up to this point) to best forward speed, increasing our fuel flow to at least 5800 lbs per hour.
We fly the mission, strike the target and begin to RTB.
2500 lbs home.
Penetration descent into base requires around 80 lbs of fuel.
So assuming I was at max fuel flow for 30 minutes or so, 2900 lbs while in combat.
Total it up.
2500 lbs to target.
2900 lbs in combat.
2500 lbs home plate.
80 lbs in descent.
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7980 lbs round trip with bombs on time on target.Now assuming a pilot simply flies a Mil power profile the entire flight at a conservative 5800 lbs per hour.
Total round trip time at Mach .9 for 200 miles there and back without striking the target is 1.11 or 1 hour 7 minutes. Right there the fuel burn is 6438. Add the 2900 lbs for combat time over the target (30 minutes) we are at 9338. Even if he somehow flies an optimum penetration descent and only burns 80 lbs, that’s still a total of 9418.
9418
-79801438 lb fuel savings, or well over the difference between JOKER and BINGO fuel.
That’s quite substantial and that’s with a rough calculation, the return to home plate provided you released the ordinance, will produce even further savings, because you’re flying at a lower drag factor, so while we calculate we’ll need 2500 lbs to return to plate for planning purposes, the actual burn will be somewhere around 1900 lbs. It’s worth the extra time to plan it out.