BMS Training Manual and Missions

[Barbs]

Hi Guys,

returning to BMS after some time off and just downloaded 4.33 U1. I am disappointed to see however that the original 4.33 Training Manual that had “Post initial release” listed under missions 17+ still has the same issue.

Are these just separate downloads somewhere or does “Post initial release” mean wayyyyyy after initial release?

[Red Dog]

did you master the content of the first 17 missions?
Or does it bother you that the cursus isn’t complete, just because it isn’t complete ?
It’s an honest question Many ppl might actually cry for the whole package just because they realize it isn’t complete but they might actually not even tried the first ones.

The missing training missions are not ready yet. They will be released when i have the time and wish to make them, as I did the first 17 ones.
the fact that nobody stepped in and offered some more is a testimony that it is not especially easy to do and requires time and motivation, i’d think
Rest assure that it will be available in due time but good things come to those who can wait

So basically, yes it means after release … with the usual 3-4 falcon weeks

[jasonbirder]

Red Dog…the 4.33 Training Manual is great…and beyond that its got that feeling of continuity - it (while more detailed and realistic in-line with the BMS content) follows on the in the same vein as the 31 Training Missions in the awesome original Falcon 4.0 Manual…(no higher praise eh!)
I’d go as far as to say for someone like me (dropped Falcon off round about RP 4 and didn’t pick it back up till very recently) It’d be VERY difficult to pick up the “New Falcon” without the content in the Training Manual…and it would be AWESOME if at some point the manual did expand to cover AA Radar and Weapons employment…
No rush though - I still haven’t mastered AA Refuelling or even looked at AG weapons yet…so you’ve probably got another 18 - 24 months at my current learning speed!

[Agave_Blue]

Oliver, first and foremost, you’ve done an exemplary job with the manuals and I have no complaint (maybe a suggestion sometime, but no dis-satisfaction or disappointment). I am happy to wait as many weeks as it takes …. or never, if that is the case. As far as I’m concerned the current version of the manuals are the best since the original Falcon4 binder, and perhaps even better in terms of total content and depth.

@Red:

…. the fact that nobody stepped in and offered some more is a testimony that it is not especially easy to do and requires time and motivation …

To be honest, I don’t ever remember you asking for or suggesting any kind of assistance.

When I asked you if I could alter some of the training missions to be F/A-18 instead of F16 and share them on the forum, you imposed what I considered an unreasonable burden for a first attempt/alpha version of those missions, stifling any attempt or progress. That is your prerogative; they are your missions. I neither made nor have any complaint and I complied with your wishes, but it is not completely true that no one has ever offered to participate.

[Barbs]

Hi Red Dog,

Thanks for the info. Wasn’t suggesting it wasn’t a big job but was just asking if I’d missed a post-release release of these missions as 4.33 came out nearly 12 months ago. If they aren’t ready they aren’t ready and I’m ok with that.

To answer your question I have worked my way through the other missions but it becomes very difficult to deploy LGBs on a port when you don’t have the basics of A-A combat down. Deployment of these weapons may be the easy bit for someone who’s been flying Falcon4.0 or it’s derivatives for years, but for a newcomer they are some pretty essential skills that simply haven’t been available in the training missions.

[plehmann]

@Red:

did you master the content of the first 17 missions?
Or does it bother you that the cursus isn’t complete, just because it isn’t complete ?
It’s an honest question Many ppl might actually cry for the whole package just because they realize it isn’t complete but they might actually not even tried the first ones.

The missing training missions are not ready yet. They will be released when i have the time and wish to make them, as I did the first 17 ones.
the fact that nobody stepped in and offered some more is a testimony that it is not especially easy to do and requires time and motivation, i’d think
Rest assure that it will be available in due time but good things come to those who can wait

So basically, yes it means after release … with the usual 3-4 falcon weeks

RD,
I’ like to practise making a training mission. If you could drop a copule of lines I’d like the opportunity to try my hand …thoughts ?

[Mower]

@Red:

the fact that nobody stepped in and offered some more is a testimony that it is not especially easy to do and requires time and motivation, i’d think

I offered at least twice, more like 4 times IIRC, to help with updating the documentation, over the past few years and heard nothing back.

My AF BMS Conversion Guide at 15,000 downloads, would suggest I am a competent instructional writer.

Now, even if the BMS folks so asked, I no longer have the time.

[Red Dog]

To be honest, I don’t ever remember you asking for or suggesting any kind of assistance.

That is correct Agave Blue- i never did. it’s part of my self, i never ask for help as i prefer ppl to step up and offer help on their own initiative, rather than begging for help.
To be honest i don’t really care about the F/A-18 in BMS. To me it is irrelevant to create a realistic training program using a F/A-18 with F-16 avionics.
Furthermore i never flew the hornet and therefore can hardly do any training mission for it. Reason why a regular F/A-18 pilot (Sting) made the ones currently in the manual.
To me converting the existing ones to F/A-18 was a waste of time to start with.
Whereas a full training package for AA, with the F-16, with training missions and training manual chapters, of the same standard of what’s already available was more useful.
I did not expect anyone to step up and try, but nobody did. It’s not all about doing you’re interested in doing something, it’s about doing it and then presenting your work to the community and see if there is a need for it.
I’m not denying it, I put my own standards very high and i won’t go for anything less than that. So i’m a pain to work for on that aspect.
but that’s the price to pay to have complete and hi quality documentation package.

We indeed want to maintain a certain standard of quality and have training missions both didactic for the newbee and challenging for the veteran pilot. And on top of all that, we need to have a corresponding manual chapter, which not everybody is ready to step forward and do correctly.
I’m not ready to make compromise on the quality of the docs, hence why it’s hard to do and why it takes time.

I offered at least twice, more like 4 times IIRC, to help with updating the documentation, over the past few years and heard nothing back.
My AF BMS Conversion Guide at 15,000 downloads, would suggest I am a competent instructional writer.
Now, even if the BMS folks could get past their apparent disdain for me, and so asked, I no longer have the time.

Yes you did.
but you couldn’t help from outside the team and your philosophy from reading your posts on the public forum was completely opposed to mine. So it wasn’t going to work.
There is no disdain at all in there. Not being part of the team you didn’t have our expertise with 4.33 and you can’t write stuff you don’t know about. (remember this community will skin you alive if you make the tiniest mistake in anything public, so doing stuff you don’t master 200% is not a good idea)
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but an outsider would have actually slowed us more than it would have helped.
Nowadays the situation is different, 4.33 is out for a while and ppl have the required experience, i’m not asking for help but that shouldn’t slow ppl from trying it out and provide training where it’s required

I’m not an AA guy, i’m a ground pounder type. I can’t really write AA training at this stage because it would be like talking of something i don’t know about. I first need to learn all that stuff ans that’s also one of the reasons it takes a long while to continue the project.
you want to help, train me proper AA

[Red Dog]

To answer your question I have worked my way through the other missions but it becomes very difficult to deploy LGBs on a port when you don’t have the basics of A-A combat down. Deployment of these weapons may be the easy bit for someone who’s been flying Falcon4.0 or it’s derivatives for years, but for a newcomer they are some pretty essential skills that simply haven’t been available in the training missions.

I don’t understand that. The LGB TRN has no AA opposition which is on purpose, i don’t see why it would be difficult to learn the LGB on their own because you lack AA skills, as i said just above, i lack AA skill as well

[Red Dog]

I’ like to practise making a training mission. If you could drop a copule of lines I’d like the opportunity to try my hand …thoughts ?

. do regular TE’s first
. teach ppl to walk before running.
. Mind the newbee first.
. Keep the text in sync with the missions.
. Make it easy for the newbees with the help of the text and hard for the veteran pilot with a few surprise making a point that sloppiness is dangerous
For instance advertise that the training is time critical and advise in the text to be out of the area by a certain time. Those reading the chapter will follow the author’s advices.
These not reading will getr jumped by a pair of migs doing multiple passes on the same easy target. That way both learn something.
The newbees learn to avoid multiple passes, the veterans learn that they are sloppy
. Make rather simple Trns, and have the complete explanation in the text (and make sure it’s correct => double check your contents for accuracy)
…

[Agave_Blue]

@Red:

…. To be honest i don’t really care about the F/A-18 in BMS. To me it is irrelevant to create a realistic training program using a F/A-18 with F-16 avionics.
Furthermore i never flew the hornet and therefore can hardly do any training mission for it. …

Thanks for the reply.

I will only say that it’s a shame that at the time neither one of us were thoughtful enough to say, “Wait, let’s talk about what can be done, instead of what can’t.”

[Mower]

@Red:

Not being part of the team you didn’t have our expertise with 4.33 and you can’t write stuff you don’t know about. (remember this community will skin you alive if you make the tiniest mistake in anything public, so doing stuff you don’t master 200% is not a good idea)…an outsider would have actually slowed us more than it would have helped.

Correct. You would have had to bring me into the BMS team and i am aware that certain specific people would block such a notion. And that is why I used the word disdain (later edited out but still applicable). You see, BMS can be it’s own worst enemy when it needs help. It is, at heart, simply too elitist, a closed club. Now that is your perogative, but you can’t then complain that nobody steps up.

I have also offered my help to other BMS folks over the years and have never received an answer. Just dead silence.

I’m not losing any sleep over any of it, just an irritant.

[Red Dog]

I have also offered my help to other BMS folks over the years and have never received an answer. Just dead silence.

Here is my own understanding of that issue (my opinion)
BMS dev are under strict rules for new members. Offers are simply declined. You kind have to proof your value before being accepted. that often means doing the stuff, taking the initiative where something lacks. Then doing so being remarked and then be invited in.
At the risk of doing all the stuff for nothing. But who dares win.

I will only say that it’s a shame that at the time neither one of us were thoughtful enough to say, “Wait, let’s talk about what can be done, instead of what can’t.”

The situation is changing with the F/A-18 in BMS with much more support. IMHO that offer was simply too soon and i was very busy with the 4.33/4.33.1 release. In the future maybe the bug will require it’s own manual and then the situation will be completely different, i/we will need a lot of help to write that part

[Sting]

@Agave_Blue:

Oliver, first and foremost, you’ve done an exemplary job with the manuals and I have no complaint (maybe a suggestion sometime, but no dis-satisfaction or disappointment). I am happy to wait as many weeks as it takes …. or never, if that is the case. As far as I’m concerned the current version of the manuals are the best since the original Falcon4 binder, and perhaps even better in terms of total content and depth.

To be honest, I don’t ever remember you asking for or suggesting any kind of assistance.

When I asked you if I could alter some of the training missions to be F/A-18 instead of F16 and share them on the forum, you imposed what I considered an unreasonable burden for a first attempt/alpha version of those missions, stifling any attempt or progress. That is your prerogative; they are your missions. I neither made nor have any complaint and I complied with your wishes, but it is not completely true that no one has ever offered to participate.

Hey mate what sort of training sorties were you thinking of? I originally thought of creating a series of Hornet training, however as it was using Viper avionics I thought it might be mute and no one would be particularly interested. which is why we limited to just hornet specific training, ie carrier operations.

However I would be happy to work with you on some others if you were still interested.

[Agave_Blue]

@Sting:

Hey mate what sort of training sorties were you thinking of? I originally thought of creating a series of Hornet training, however as it was using Viper avionics I thought it might be mute and no one would be particularly interested. which is why we limited to just hornet specific training, ie carrier operations.

However I would be happy to work with you on some others if you were still interested.

PM’d. To this point, merely substitution of the F/A-18C for the F16 in a couple of existing missions.

[Lox]

;)@Red:

did you master the content of the first 17 missions?
Or does it bother you that the cursus isn’t complete, just because it isn’t complete ?
It’s an honest question Many ppl might actually cry for the whole package just because they realize it isn’t complete but they might actually not even tried the first ones.

The missing training missions are not ready yet. They will be released when i have the time and wish to make them, as I did the first 17 ones.
the fact that nobody stepped in and offered some more is a testimony that it is not especially easy to do and requires time and motivation, i’d think
Rest assure that it will be available in due time but good things come to those who can wait

So basically, yes it means after release … with the usual 3-4 falcon weeks

Hello Red Dog;), I tried to create missions like the one you’ve done, and I must say, you did a great excellent job.
Can you tell me how you accomplished that. If I tried to amend the existing TE, I have no access to those files, like the TE’s from scratch as
described in the BMS Manual. Also I am looking for the Technical binary reference list BMS 2.0 but cannot find it.

Hope you help me out?:D

Lox;)