Mainly for Mav-JP - 12 degrees stick axes offset
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Guys, logic that with side stick for pilot it’s easier to pull towards his body doesn’t work here. With center stick, if you right handed, it’s easier to pull diagonally to the right, but has anyone heard of misalignment of stick and a/c axis in a/c with center stick?
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all I can think of the gyroscopic effect from the engine. FLCS doesn’t do that much for roll. So Jp would have to model 12* stick offset and gyroscopic effect from the engine pitch changes……if true. If true…leave it alone, imo.
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FWIW, you could implement this offset with the TARGET software if you are using that rather than changing BMS code. The command is RotateDXAxis. See page 13 of the Script Editor manual. http://ts.thrustmaster.com/download/accessories/pc/hotas/software/TARGET/TARGET_Script_Editor_Basics_v1.5_ENG.pdf
Nice info. I will check it out!
Cheers
Tulkas
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Guys, logic that with side stick for pilot it’s easier to pull towards his body doesn’t work here. With center stick, if you right handed, it’s easier to pull diagonally to the right, but has anyone heard of misalignment of stick and a/c axis in a/c with center stick?
Don’t take this bad, but your logic doesn’t add anything to the discussion. You know or you don’t, you have extra data or you don’t have it.
In the meanwhile I went to ask over F-16.net, I got an straight answer there:
The original YF-16 stick, in addition to being rigid, was aligned with the airplane axis system. It was found that pilots had a tendency to input some small roll command while trying to do a pure pitch pull up. Not sure when the change was made, but production airplanes have a stick with a small amount of motion in addition to the 12 degree rotated axis.
So, yes, if you pull straight back on the stick (airplane axis) you will get a small right roll command.
Now, I cannot say 100% he knows because I don’t know the guy but is register at the forums as an LM engineer, has been in the forums since 2007 and has +1000 posts there so all together with the information showed in this thread I am mostly convinced that most modern F16s has that rotation on the stick control axis. This is compatible with Kukki’s possible A-modell SSC not having such a rotation.
Cheers
Tulkas
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Talked to sa good friend of mine, that have the BLK 10 and BLK 52 stickbase, and the Pitch transducers in the BLK 10 Stickbase is NOT angled those 12 degree, but they are in the BLK 52 stick base, so I guess the newer type of stickbases are modified after they found out that you tend to pull the stick a little inboard to you.
And that explains why my Pitch up/down is straight (I have the old stick base).So I think we can’t squeeze much more out if this here topic, I think we have our answers and all got a bit wiser here.
Good Talk. -
Talked to sa good friend of mine, that have the BLK 10 and BLK 52 stickbase, and the Pitch transducers in the BLK 10 Stickbase is NOT angled those 12 degree, but they are in the BLK 52 stick base, so I guess the newer type of stickbases are modified after they found out that you tend to pull the stick a little inboard to you.
And that explains why my Pitch up/down is straight (I have the old stick base).So I think we can’t squeeze much more out if this here topic, I think we have our answers and all got a bit wiser here.
Good Talk.yeah and we know that TARGET is able to mix axis…
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Ok guys I am hoping to settle this once and for all. Here is a screenshot of Foxy’s Joystick Analyzer showing my block 50 real stick being pushed and pulled straight fore and aft. You can clearly see the compensation built in to the sensors. Roll is dead even with horizontal. What it doesnt show though is how marginal the difference is. I could easily fly without it and I am certain I would get used to it in minutes. Granted, it is really effective because my natural movement when I am not thinking about it makes the cursor go straight. Having said that, I have an FCC 2 and to be fair, I will hook it up and try it.
Tulkas, I know you are obsessed with getting as real as you can but if you dont have the offset I do not think you will be hindered at all. After all, you havent even tried this yet. Do you have the FCC? If so, see if Arend will mod your sensors. It may be the answer for you.
By the way, I have an A-model 24 pin stick base and it does not have the offset so there you go guys. I hope that will put this to bed. Great discussion guys. Tulkas, I of all people understand wanting to get as much as you can exactly like the real F-16. A worthy effort mate.
Regards
Nigel -
The more I think about it the more I think this may be quite a significant mod from Lockheed Martin. I can imagine that after hours and hours of flying this would save a lot of fatigue for the pilot. That could make a big difference for AAF and combat. Hmmm…
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I’ll see what i can do anyway (it does not seem to be a big deal to include an option in the cfg )
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TOP
Mav-JP -
if i understand correctly , only the AFT/ FWD sensor is rotated ? the left right is not ? (i.e. no roll / pitch coupling but only pitch / roll coupling ?)
i dont get it :(…
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It is not something that a rl pilot will focus to the first time he grabs the stick on the air, he will quickly get used of it without worried what is inside there. I didn’t had any problems on 6 different rl sims anyway, but of course I cannot tell if the sensors inside the SCC were actually rotated 12deg cw to match the rl thing.
I do however have some few hud vids from new pilots that when pulling back on the stick they actually seem to try to keep the bird steady in the roll axis, continuously banking the jet up to 20deg, until relaxing on the stick again.
BTW, when a customer purchases this jet, he can request the FLCS to be programmed as per his requirements, within some limits of course according to LM or system(s) specs. I know for such a criteria, when the jet is performing a full roll in clean catI config, not to loose more that 200ft (example, don’t remember the value) in altitude from the start point. If the recorded test was unsuccessful the team had to reprogram the FLCS to perform as it should otherwise the plane was not delivered to the final user.
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Ha, ha! Mav, you just raised a new discussion subject!
But I don’t think so if this drawing is accurate:
http://www.blu3wolf.com/Images/pics/F-16_F6.jpg
Nigel! Thank you very much for your input! Yes I do have Arend’s FCC2 but I was under the impression that the software option was better solution than modding. Now that I got the hint about TARGET scripts I will try that and if Mav adds a cfg option even better!
Cheers
Tulkas
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FLIGHT CONTROL SYSTEM OPERATIONS
Stick
The stick is a force-sensing unit which contains transducers
in both pitch and roll axes, moves approximately 1/4 inch in
both axes, and is rotated slightly cw. Maximum nose up and
nose down pitch commands are generated by 25 and 16
pounds of input, respectively. Roll commands are generated
by a maximum of 17 pounds in cruise gains and by 12
pounds in takeoff and landing gains. When using the
switches/ buttons on the stick, inadvertent inputs to the
FLCS are possible. The wrist rest and armrest assemblies,
which may be used in conjunction with the stick, are located
on the right side wall aft of the stick. -
Don’t know where you got that picture from, but that is NOT right in the real jet.
And I don’t want to spent more energy on this here topic, and sertelny not on some home made cad drawings. Sorry AmraamAnd read your own post, ITS THE TRANSDUCERS there is rotated.
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And read your own post, ITS THE TRANSDUCERS there is rotated.
in english, those tenses indicate that the stick is the object rotated, not the transducers.
the stick IS… contains transducerS… and IS (not “which ARE”) rotated…
That said we alsl have pictures of the jet which appear to have the stick physically aligned with the aircraft axes.
the paragraph is the same as the one I posted earlier in the thread anyway, from the dash one.
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Don’t know where you got that picture from, but that is NOT right in the real jet.
And I don’t want to spent more energy on this here topic, and sertelny not on some home made cad drawings. Sorry AmraamAnd read your own post, ITS THE TRANSDUCERS there is rotated.
Picture come from the real dash one PTC.
It does not mean that the stick himself is reorientate but the respond curve is. -
OK Amraam, got it.
I have never seen a physical Stick rotated 12 degree, never.
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i am sorry but i am completely lost now … apparently from dash one, the stick is rotated… (which TBH would make sens anyway)
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@Mav, it turns that the SCC and stick are actually aligned properly, the internal SCC sensors however have the 12deg cw positioning. Is is logical due to the wrist joint with the physical arm positioning that if pulling back the stick will give a physical wrist movement to actually the ~7 o’clock axis.
This weekend I will be close to rl so I’ll find out more. Don’t completely count on the manual, specially -1, as to other details it leaves this deeper details in black, no need for the passenger to know more. One would need access to the FLCS maintenance ppl to find out the answers.